The Hope Dealer with Barri Leiner Grant | 047

The one thing that I'm really sad about is that people did say,

you can't speak at her funeral. Like it'll be way

too much. And I'm so sad about that. I've written the

eulogy that I would have given and shared it and

published it. And, you know, I've tried to

sort of recreate and reconstruct what I'm very sad

about. And yeah, I just think the way that

the world met me at that moment was it wasn't even that

the world was grief illiterate. It was just unspoken.

It was completely unspoken. And you went on with your life.

My stepfather went back to work and so we took his lead and my sister

got on an airplane and she's five years younger than me, poor thing.

And I went back to running a public relations firm and

fashion shows during fashion week. I mean, now that I look at it, it's just

so sad to me. I have a lot of empathy and compassion for little

Barry. Welcome back to another episode of

Resilient AF with Blair and Alana. But pause the Alana

and bring in Barry. Oh my gosh, Barry.

She's my unofficial mentor in the professional grief space.

The moment I met her, I fell in love. We have a lot of

similarities with our career paths. I love her

vibe. She's one of the most stylish people and I got to meet her in

person and I can't wait to see her again in person coming up. But

she is a well respected grief specialist, author and founder

of the Memory Circle for those learning to live with loss.

As a coach, educator and advocate, she holds transformative

gatherings and workshops to explore grief tending tools

and techniques that foster community hope and healing.

She's a recovering journalist with stints at the Chicago Tribune.

Tribune, Tribune, Tribune, Tribune. That's so Canadian of me,

the Chicago Tribune and the and Chicago Magazine. Her work's

been featured in the Washington Post, Psychology Today, Maria

Shriver's Sunday paper, amongst others. Her popular

substack Permission Granted shares more of her personal

essays and looks at life and loss through a modern

lens. Her writing is amazing. Go follow her. Her links are below.

She honors her dad today who died in January after living with memory

loss and Alzheimer's for a decade.

Am so honored that we have shared her story in Resilient AF

Stories of Resilience Volume 2 and she's going to be in our

forthcoming book. Well, by the time you listen to this, maybe this is already.

The book's already out. But Resilient AF Skin Deep Stories.

So welcome to the show. Barry, I'm so glad

to be here. It's so much fun and also such

an honor. I. I think collaboration is

the best part of our work in the world and you make that

so effortless. Oh, well, thank you. I mean, I really do like,

believe humans are meant to heal as community.

And it's so. Grief is so individualized and it

can be very isolating. So I believe as a griever, we should

heal together. But also as a grief and resilience expert,

I believe in lifting while I climb. And, you know, the more

people that we can help, the better. Because especially now, it's

so heavy out there. It sure is. It sure is. And

I don't really want to do it alone. I learned that lesson

grieving. And I lost my mom. Suddenly I was

lots of things. She knew about me. I was a publicist.

I then later was a journalist. She

knew all about my writing and all about all of that. And I think

the story that I told myself back then was she'd be good and pissed if

I define myself in any way by her death.

And it did define me. And it took me a really

long time to realize that

I wanted her to continue to know me, to be proud of

me, to have that connective tissue. And so

with every, like, motherless daughter that I would meet along the way

or griever, it felt like it was tapping,

but I wasn't answering. I was a little

afraid. And I'm so glad I

made the break. So in 93,

your mom passed away. First of all, what's your mom's name?

Ellen. You know, I always ask that. I know. And I've started

doing it because of you, because I think 1. People always

use the past tense like her name was. It's like, actually, no, it's still her

name. And people light up when you ask them. Them?

Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite practices, which I've shared with you,

is that I'll often order my takeout or

a coffee. I giggle when I order bubble tea

because it's so not Ellen. But I use her name when they

say, you know, name for the order. And hearing it ring out, you

know, we. We need to continue to talk about them and bring them into our

everyday conversations. It. It keeps her alive

and. And it really is so much fun. It's an easy thing and an

easy grief tending tool. And again, I do that because of you. And

I only just started and the first time I did it With Sharon,

the person maybe have never heard the name Sharon before. And they spelled it, like,

completely like S H E R E N. I was like, that's unique. And they

yelled out Sharon. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. And then

on the way to Winnipeg for the high holidays, I did

Len. Like, my dad's Leonard. But I was like, I'll just do Len. And it

was just fun. And I'm like, this is when I remember to do it. If

I go in person at Starbucks or a coffee shop, not only only do I,

like, do it, but I always think of you because I'm doing it because of

you. And it is really nice. And I think it's a really beautiful.

A beautiful way to feel the presence of those who are

gone. And ritual is the way that I have learned over time

to connect to my mom, to carry her

memory forward. And now figuring out what that looks like for my

dad. It was like, you know, pumpkin spice day on my

dad's birthday. And so it was super fun. It was the first time

I had ever done it in my dad's name. His name is Neil. And it

was. It was really fun and funny and

everything else about, like, our. Our gathering was

kind of crap. We were. We were. We were like, we can't

eat there anymore. Like, the food isn't good if we're not with dad. Like, a

lot of things that we did with him, we felt like it was like some

kind of a sign for my dad to be like, yeah, don't go back to

all those spots without me. So,

yeah. And so I know you've recently lost your dad. You lost your mom

in 93. Let's talk a bit about Ellen. Tell us about Ellen,

what your life was like at that time when you lost her. I

was in my late 20s and

she was healthy, 50. Took

the day off, called us all. We were all in our places, as I

always say. My. I was tucked into a PR agency that I

started that she knew all about. She had just moved my sister into

her very first job, an apartment in Denver. She was

giddy that she had scalped us open

golf tickets for my stepfather. She was, like, so excited. She thought it was,

like, breaking rules and nearly illegal. And.

And she took the day off, and she didn't go to the

normal place where we usually go to the beach, which was like a

club where she played, like, Scrabble. Not a fancy place, but, like,

everybody in New Jersey sort of has a place where you hang your towel and

your swimsuit and A locker and whatever. And she

didn't go there that day. She went to the public beach, which is called Sandy

Hook. It's a beautiful national. And

she fell asleep in her beach chair. She had an aneurysm. And

we only found out because the sun set on this

day and a couple was there and knew that they

were about to leave her alone and thought she had just slept. And

so we're tapping her on the shoulder and couldn't wake her. The woman happened

to be a nurse, which is incredible. But because it was all before

cell phones, you know, they had to find a payphone and 9, 1 1.

And she was very much gone by the.

And we knew she wanted her organs

donated. And so they waited until

my sister and I got there to sort of make the decision. And

all of our goodbyes. Goodbyes that I would have changed

entirely. Knowing what I know now was so shocking. It was so

traumatic. And nobody really

asked if we needed to talk to anybody.

Nobody called it sad,

overwhelming. Like, I just think, what the hell were the grown ups doing?

Like, and they were grown ups. People treated me like I was one too.

I had just lost the most important person,

most unbelievable woman on the

planet. I don't know where, you

know, now I look back at it and I'm like, they all thought I would

be okay. They all thought, you're strong like her. You know, you have

lots of lessons from her. And it's really

heartbreaking now. Like, I look back at the year

now through the eyes of my daughter. When she turned

my age, she brought it up to me. It wasn't even

a milestone that I knew I was reaching until she.

She told me, mom, how old were you when Grandma Ellen died? I also love

that we call her Grandma Ellen. She was never a grandma, but I also

impart her wisdom by sharing with my girls Grandma Ellen stories.

And she kept reminding me, like, how much you need a mother

at every age, I believe, but especially in those

formative years, you know, like, your prefrontal cortex, like,

just came online. You're having to deal with

all of this. And the one thing that I'm really sad about is that

people did say, you can't speak at

her funeral. Like, it'll be way too much. And I'm so

sad about that. I've written the. The eulogy that

I would have given and shared it and published it.

And, you know, I've tried to sort of recreate

and reconstruct what I'm very sad about.

And yeah, I just think the way

that the World met me at that moment

was it wasn't even that the world was grief illiterate. It was

just unspoken. It was. It was completely unspoken.

And you went on with your life. My stepfather went back to work,

and so we took his lead, and my sister got

on an airplane, and she's five years younger than me, poor thing. And

I went back to running a public relations firm and fashion shows

during Fashion Week. I mean, now that I look at it, it's just so

sad. To me, I have a lot of empathy and compassion for

little Barry. That's really hard.

It's really, really hard. And like, I. In

93, like, I don't know what support was there. Like, I was

only 8, and I don't remember any conversations around grief.

Even when I was 20 and my aunt died. And so

knowing that your mom, that happened, your mom was, you know, hopefully peacefully,

you know, at one of her favorite spots, which is a beach,

she, you know, went. And then you

and your younger sister now have to navigate this world without

your mother, your most important person. And there was no one talking

to you, reaching out for support, sending you books. And

there was no, like, links and stuff to send. No, it wasn't a year. It

wasn't until a year that Hope Edelman published Motherless

Daughters. I have to say, it was a whole year later that there was

even really a book. I met a

therapist a few years ago that was really an analyst, like a genius

woman who said, you know, the story that I told myself was

no one was talking about grief and grieving. And she says, my dear, I was

most certainly in practice and talking to my

people about grief. And so it was there.

You just had to seek. And I think if you were not

falling apart, you know, I. I looked strong

and together, and I got the message from the world around

me. The, the stronger you are, the

more you get feedback from the world. And. And that's kind of the

loop that it creates. Like, oh, I'm.

I. I look okay. I. I'm signing new business.

I'm going to work every day. I'm, you know,

I guess eating, sleeping. Like, it was very basic. And I. My

insides were screaming. Like, I would walk through places like

Grand Central Station and see people going up escalators and down escalators

and be like, where the are you going? Don't you

know my mother died? Like, that's what I just wanted to

scream. Now, sometimes I imagine

a world where we're all wearing a T shirt that, you know,

says exactly what we're ailing or what we're sick

with or who we've lost. And like, then we meet each other

with like the same kind of humanity and

empathy that you and I meet one another. Because we, we share

grief as like. A language we speak

that's, that's so important. And I think now with the access

to social media and websites, like, the

speed at which information can be in our hands

is so much faster. And I can't even

imagine what it would have been like for you to be hit with this grief.

And also not even knowing what resources to look for

and how do you find it? No one even suggested it. Like,

there wasn't so much as a pamphlet, post funeral,

anything. Like really, I comb

my memories for someone saying grief or grieving

and it was not available. Zero.

What do you wish? What do you wish? Like

one. I mean, there's probably lots of things, but what do you wish that you

knew then, that you know now? I mean,

when I cracked open Motherless Daughters, I

knew I wasn't alone. I think you cognitively know that I was not the

first girl who had ever lost her mother. I was not the first 27 year

old that had ever lost a mother.

I. I wish I had

a support circle. I wish

I knew even one other person to talk to

about it. I would have felt so much less alone. I had my sister,

so we were this incredible island.

Like, she knew everything that I was missing and,

and I knew everything she was missing. But also, as the eldest,

I felt a lot of maternal responsibility for her.

And I have goosebumps when I say that. I

really did. I just. Poor little Dana. Like, I

just thought she really needs her. I

didn't think that so much for myself, but

I did for her. Deeply. Yeah.

And it's hard because now you feel this pressure to be there

for your sister, but who's being there for you?

My mom's sister was very much there for us, but she was also

missing her sister. So it was very. It also made

me feel like the sad girl in the room if I

spoke about my feelings, which I know

now is like, we must. We must be

seen, heard, witnessed. I needed my story.

Witnessed. I needed. And so when I found those

stories on the pages of that book and it.

I just thought, someone knows. There's someone

knows this, this, this Hope Edelman person. This, this

person knows. And you know, fast forward to now. You know,

I, I have sat shoulder to

shoulder with Hope and been on Motherless

Daughters retreats, helping support her with other

motherless daughters. Like, I Never had anything like that. So

I think I can't even imagine

what my grief would look like if I had had

that back then. I don't. I don't know how different it would be

or not, because it taught me so much. Right. Taught me

so much. It. Well, look, you created the memory

circle. Yes. And like that. Like, how was that

created? And did your mom have a hand in that?

I. I started

yoga teacher training. It was sort of just to

deepen my practice. I've been doing yoga since

around that time, early 90s. And

I just wanted to get curious about why.

I wasn't certain that I would ever teach. But it was such an important

part of how I processed

feelings. Like, I knew once my feet hit that mat was sort

of like my magic carpet. It was, like, safe. The people

were community. When I walked in, someone

knew whether I had been away or I was there. The teacher knew

your name. There was just a lot about that that felt

good. And there was something spiritual about it that really was, like,

pretty religious for me, if you will. Like, that spiritual

presence was in my life. I think it's so funny because I think also

my mom would have been kind of laughing about it

because although she was very. Lots of parts blue, I

think. I think it would have been a funny thing, like, oh, we're going to

yoga again. Like, I think it would have been funny. But when I did my

training, at the very end, we. We had to name what

is called San Culpa, which is your

heart's greatest desire. It sort of aligns with your

dharma, your energy. It's sort of like how I describe when.

When you have, like, a full body. Yes. It's just like

you sit up straight in your seat. You know it's right. You know it's on

purpose, and you state it in. And so mine

was, I will start a motherless daughter

circle. I will sit shoulder to shoulder with those who

have experienced loss. And there it was. I mean, it

was sort of and still is what I think of as

the memory circle. I didn't name it. I just had a couple of events

pre Mother's Day. I thought Mother's Day was, like, the hardest.

I would curse the aisles, you know, of the Hallmark store, and

anywhere there were cards, like, it would come earlier and earlier every year, and it

would just make me so angry. So I was like, especially after I had

kids, I was like, what if we took back Saturday and had these events on

Saturday and then on the Sunday, That's Mother's Day in the Us, we

would have our day where others wanted to celebrate us. Because I really

just wanted to disappear in the past.

And over time, I saw a

shaman at a friend's suggestion, and

one of the things she said to me was, you must collaborate. And that has

also been one of those guiding words. Lights

biggest part of my work that led to, like, first ever podcast

with a dear friend and amazing human,

Elena Brower, who happens to be my sister's college

roommate. She was the only one I knew that had a podcast. She had all

these famous authors on. I was like driving down Lakeshore

Drive, if I could collaborate with anyone, who would it be? And her name

came into my mind and I wrote her.

And it like, was a boomerang how fast it returned. And

I got an intake form from her assistant

and it said, is there anything else you want us to promote? And it was

a lengthy intake form. Out of my fingers,

like magic, came the memory circle. I like, shouted out to my girls,

look up Instagram and see if the memory circle is available. Look. I go,

daddy, see if the memory. Before I hit send on the form. I just wanted

to make sure that it was kind of free and clear.

And I booked an event to

promote Camp Erin. It was a free grief circle at a new

photo at a new studio that a friend had opened called the Space

Between. My friend Darren, and she

realized in my doing so that her mother had experienced mother loss at a

young age. Invited her mother, sort of saw it through my

eyes, appreciating her mother's experience that she had

never really noted, you know.

And Darren gets a call after she puts it on

the calendar, and it's from a woman who's a practitioner there.

And she says, hey, this woman Cindy, who

does the OK here called and said she wants to know if you want to

collaborate. I was like, wait, what?

So it turns out Cindy is a medium fast

forward. She. She lives in my town in New York now. We both met

in Chicago back when. So I said I

would love to, but I need to make sure this person does not, you know,

a kook. So I paid and booked an appointment with

her. And I walked in and she said, your mom's been here all morning.

And at the very end of our reading, she sort of dismisses, like all

the energies and angels and spirits and guides and,

you know, she's sort of closing out the our appointment. And she says,

wait, wait, wait. Ellen has one more thing to say. Don't make

it sad. So mom was completely on board.

And I think my worry always

Was it would define me as the sad girl. And my business would be like

the business of being sad. And I knew otherwise from even the

very few circles that I had done

that. It was more like being a hope dealer. It really

was much, much less about sadness and just giving

people a place to put it down, process,

be with it, swim in the soup, sit

with others who get it. And I just knew it was anything

otherwise, and I knew it was a need because people would say, there's nowhere

to go for this. You're such a pioneer.

And I love it. And I love. I love this story. I love that

you're a hope dealer and that Ellen said, don't make it sad

because there's enough of that. Yeah. And I

think sometimes it is sad, but it's. But it's.

It's a sad that is so universal

in so many ways. Right there is this. I feel

like I was born a little bit bittersweet, if you will. But it's like, to

me, it's like a sad song or

crescendo in music that like, brings tears to your

eyes. I think I'm just so attuned to

those big feelings. Like, I'm. It's. I'm so easy to. To

tears. And I was often called, like, oh, you're so sensitive. You

worry about worrying, but I feel like it's empathic. And in that

same reading, my mom told the

shaman that she was sorry she never fostered my gift. So I think

my mom knew that I had this intuition that I had this,

this guiding in intuitive guidance that

I knew I knew. And, and I. And I used it in

work because I feel like I

could smell trends a mile away. Like, I used to know what was

coming next, and I used to get really excited, kind of like,

what's next? What's new? There was like this woman called

Faith Popcorn that you all have to look up because she was a futurist.

And there was so much about that that intrigued

me. But I also had a lot of proof in the world,

working in fashion and beauty and branding, that my

instincts were. Were spot on. And it was outside of creativity. It

was like sort of this, this knowing, this hunch.

I love that. And

so you're featured in our book

and one of your tattoos is featured. Tell us about it.

So on the morning of my 50th

birthday, I didn't have much of a plan. My mom died at

50. I think the year between 49 and 50. The story that was

on loop in my head was, what if this is all you had

left? What if this is all you had left? What if this is all you

had left? And I can't remember anything like Giant I

did that year, but when I woke up on that morning,

I turned to my husband in bed and said, can you call

Harlan? My husband has a sleeve of tattoos. Can you call

Harlan and see if he'll see me today? I want to get

my mom's signature on my wrist,

and I wanted it on my left. I'm a lefty. Both parents were

righty. Both my sister and I are lefty. And I wanted it on

my left hand because of that, but also because it was close to my heart.

And Alex didn't say anything about why

I was going to. And Harlan said yes, and whatever time

it was. And I went that afternoon and brought him a

little sketch. He had a. He had to open up some of her loops so

that over time it wouldn't close in on itself. But I

guess by law, you have to have an id, even though he knew me.

And so I handed him my license and he said, today's your

birthday. And I said, yes. And then I told him the why and

the whole thing. And he said, oh, that's on me. And I was like, oh,

Ellen loved a discount. And it was really just so funny.

It was very sweet and. And lovely. And I think my mom would

be absolutely horrified that I got a tattoo.

But I think we also make those kind of like,

middle finger choices in life. Like, you're not here. I'm gonna

do this anyway, you know? Yeah, I do. Yeah.

As soon as my mom died, my. Sister and I both went on Accutane because

our mom would never let us. And I was like, she's not here.

Right. I mean, I know. I mean, I moved

from New York to Chicago. I think I thought I could outrun

my grief and said yes by moving away. But

I. Yeah. She never would have

let me leave the Tri State area if she were alive.

That would not have happened. And I think of all the things that happened

because of. Not in spite of, but because of. And.

And I. I see all of those. Not. Not

because everything happens for a reason, because that makes

me shake like nails on the tree.

But my friend Kathy says that which is right is

unfolding. And that really resonates with

me that when I look at how it all unfurled,

I believe so much of it to be true. Like, I didn't grow up and

be like, I know what I'm gonna be when I'm older. You Know, I always

wanted to be a writer, but I never in a million years

would have thought that I would be a

grief specialist and train with Hope Edelman and train with

Claire Biddlewell Smith. People's books who I had read

later in life that were life

changing, altering, and.

Yeah. And that ink has

meant so much to me, and it has opened so many conversations

everywhere I go. That's. That's

also interesting. It's like. It's like a little

invitation. Yeah. I love it.

I love the tattoo and the meaning behind it. It definitely resonates

for similar reasons. I have my mother's signature, and that's something you and I both

bonded on. You know, there's something so special about having the writing

on us permanently, and it brings that feeling of comfort.

And I'm right handed and my mom's signature's on my arm, so it's like anytime

I'm creating and doing things, she's with me. And I don't know. I absolutely

love that and that, you know, you were able to take your

experience and build this career and this path.

And I want to fast forward to recently to January.

You lost your dad, Neil. Yeah. And this was a

different type of loss. Yeah. How do you think

losing your mom and the work that you've been doing in the grief space

laid a foundation for you knowing what was to come?

I had lots of presents.

I knew from the day

that he had a mild cognitive

impairment diagnosis that I

was on a ride, that I was

going to soak up every last memory

we had. And I think I was already. It's

ironic that the memory circle was named what

it was because after my mom's death, I became sort of

a keeper of memories. She was so much more a doer,

really. Like her, her days had, like, 26 hours and everybody else's had

24. She was always doing. She was like,

last at the beach and last at the mall and, like, soaking it all up.

And we were always running on E in the car. And she was like

my dad.

The memory circle, to me then meant

holding his. All of the memories so tightly

as we were in it and

learning about caretaking and decision making on

his behalf. And as the eldest daughter, I had

some really hard conversations with him

that I'm not sure my siblings would have been

ready to have. And I think that came from my work also, because

I'm like the bossy older sister. But,

yeah, what do you want? What's best for you

if you can't make decisions on your own? And

we have to make them for you. What are your wishes? And we really knew.

And I think that creates what I call

clean grief. Like, I will always miss him and can't believe

there's a world in which Neil David Leiner does no longer live.

But I knew that

everything he wanted was what we were carrying out.

We were also his

advocates. We fought for dignity

and educated people along the way. I shared

our story and at the same

time, I really met him exactly where he was

all the time. But I had this sort of built in

little reminder that we were making

memories as we were going along. So I had

oodles of pictures I didn't want to forget. Like, the

cadence of his walk. I

wanted to hear I love you more than the whole wide world. And his voice,

which is another tattoo that I have on my side because he signed

every letter. I was just gonna ask, what are we doing for Neil? Yeah, he

signed every. Got it already. And I got it when he was alive because that's

amazing. I wanted to show him and see if he

remembered, you know, we remembered for him. We

told him stories. We told him stories about himself. Like, I

was so present in

grieving while he was there and knowing what it was going to

be like, or at least guessing what it was going to be like on the

other side. And 50 versus

86 was hugely different. It felt like a

very full life. I was very Sad about the 10 years that I feel

like this guy with this brilliant brain,

incredible advertising creative, who had worked on the very

first breast cancer drugs and so many breakthrough ad campaigns and

won awards and was beloved by

clients. You know, I was so sad that

to see his creativity go, but, like, little lights

would shine. Like, his sense of humor was, like, so spot on and

so quick. And every now and again, we would just

know he was in there. I got to read essays

aloud that I wrote and share, you

know, the resiliency book and essay I wrote

about him. And there was just so much that I was.

I had this newfound awareness and even

calling on palliative care and calling on hospice and

filling out a whiteboard in his hospital room, like,

my name is Neil. Call me Neil. I have dementia.

I wear hearing aids. Like, we learn how to advocate in such a

way that it makes me so proud now

to share what we learned. I have two

brothers. I hate to call them half brothers. My dad remarried and

had twins with my stepmother. And

my dad's. He calls his. All his social media was like,

Grampcy four. And, you know, like, he. He was very about the

four of us. And so I always say, like, the liner four was a

force. We were connected,

cohesive, all for one and one for all. If one

wasn't comfortable, we didn't do it. And we all had our own

strengths. You know, my sister said I

had the boxing gloves on and, you know, was sort

of everywhere we went, like, really fighting, not just for

my dad, but sort of the advocacy of all

elders and all elders who show up at the hospital who

have memory loss. Could we have training? Could we, you know,

can we do better? Can we do better? Mm. I

think that's absolutely beautiful. And Neil is so proud of you. Oh,

thank you. And may Neil's memory be a blessing. And I can't wait for you

to show me your tattoo when I see you. Yeah, I love it in November,

but for sure, in January. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you know, and

I think it's like, Ellen was giving you these gifts to

prepare you and to leave that legacy.

And how lucky is Neil to have you as

a daughter and the, you know, siblings you have, like,

what a gift that is. And we were all there on the

day that he died, and we played his favorite music, and we.

I encouraged everybody to take photos, you know, holding his hand. Like,

his hands. Like, there's something about hands in our family that are

just. You never forget what it's like, those

hands that hold your hands. And I tell that to everybody.

I have a friend that's going to visit someone today who

is dying, and I said the same thing. Take pictures of your

hands together. Oops. Yeah, it's. It can be

so beautiful just. Just to have that and remember. But my mom

was before social media. My dad was like, the guy

was on social media. So I don't know. I have so many

pictures and such a large digital footprint.

I'm not, like, a giant fan of having my photo taken, but I

think about it for my girls, that is part of memory making. I

want them to have that when I'm gone,

too. And what a gift that

you recognize that. What a

gift. Is it a gift? I think so. I mean, I

know that when I'm feeling really griefy, I turn to a shoebox of photos,

and I only have so much online and, like, Instagram deactivated

our mother's Instagram account without any sort of warning. And so, like,

that felt like this whole new grief. And so taking photos and

putting them somewhere where, you know, maybe you're developing them or putting them in books,

like, having, like, the physical memories, you know. We need to Print

them. Like, if. If you're listening and you don't have a little framed

picture on your, you know, bedside desk. I also love when

they're around the house like that, because I'm, like, passing by them every day. You

know, they're. They're part of. Part of home. Yeah. And I

love now the technology. You can just like, oh, you had this. This experience. Like,

it's like a vacation or, you know, and there's multiple pictures. You can just print

them in a book and have that on display. Or, you know, I. And

I have one in my office. From a vacation that we took with dad.

Yeah. For his 80th birthday. It's like, you know, him

under this, like, waterfall,

like, his. Living his best pina colada life. Like, that's

amazing. You know, my mom used to complain because there was never,

like, there wasn't a lot of pictures of me, my mom, and my sister in

our adult life. And right before the pandemic, we did a trip to Palm Springs,

and there's this company called Flytographer, and it's my friend's company, and I love it.

But we booked a photographer and we did a photo shoot in the desert. And

then, like, a couple weeks later, the world shut down, and then she died. So

we have these really beautiful photos, which was a gift that we got for mom.

So we got actually this final photo shoot. And it's like, I wish

we had more. I wish we started earlier, like,

you know, and so if you're listening, like, listen to Barry and me. Like, take

as many possible. Like, we know now, because you can't just, like, make new

photos. I mean, with AI, you can, but that's not. That's weird. Kind of

freaky. Yeah. I wish I. I had also asked,

like, all the relatives for the pictures they had

of my mom. I get surprise

ones every now and again, which is such a treat. Like, her old

boss at the real estate firm, her daughter was, like, cleaning out

the mom's things and found, like, a picture of my mom that I had never

seen. It was like a headshot of some sort that my mom took and another

one from some fundraising event. So every now and again, like, I get, like, a

little. A little sparkle, a little sprinkle. So if you know that there might

be some people that had photos of your loved ones, ask them,

too. Sometimes I make appointments to talk to my mom's old friends so I

can, you know, connect. I love that. You know, it's so being

Jewish. I don't know if this Relates to you. I had a Bat Mitzvah. And,

like, for us, it was a trend to, like, have these poster boards, and so

you'd have pictures and then everyone would sign it. And my sister,

because my mom doesn't exist anymore. Well, she's not. Her house doesn't exist anymore. So

my sister has, like, my stuff up in her house, like, because I'm not going

to carry some of this stuff across the country because inevitably I'll probably end up

back here at some point, but. And I have my own

room here. But my sister has my bat Mitzvah board app. And I spent time

yesterday looking at all the messages, and I found the one from my mom's mom,

who's no longer here. And I found the message from my mom about being so

proud of me, which is a common, like, theme, which is what

inspired the tattoo book, which you're going to have to read the book to learn

about it. My dad's message was love dad. But it's just like

not be the photo, but it's like this message that is there. And

it's the same thing. Like, if you find old birthday cards, like, I used to

never keep birthday cards. If I find a card that was written from

someone that is no longer here, I keep it now because I didn't care about

having that. But now it's like those pictures and those notes mean more. I have

this on. On my desk, and I. I've posted about this, but my friend

Lisa realized that when she friend Cindy, she didn't have any

notes from Cindy. And so she started this thing called the Orange Envelope

Project as a tribute to her friend Cindy. And she sent everyone

who had meaning to her in her life and told us

why in this little project. So that we have a written card

from Lisa to honor Cindy. And it came in this giant

orange envelope, and I posted about it with Lisa's permission,

because this is a very easy way to

honor someone. It's a great thing to do if you're honoring the memory of someone

you've lost. But also, I was so

touched reading about how

I'm perceived by Lisa while we were all. While we were all alive.

Thank you very much. Whoa. I love that. Can you send me

that social media post? So I just had this idea because I do a lot

of traveling for the work that I do because I don't have kids, and I

have this freedom, and I do a lot of work in the grief space, helping

Grief trips. Co facilitating grief trips. And I'm like,

you know what I'm bringing back Sending postcards. And not just to my.

I'm going to send them to myself. So in the moment, if I'm having a

moment, I want to write a postcard to myself and send it, but I'm going

to start sending postcards to the people I love again. And I

think also bring mom into the conversation. Like, if you

wrote postcards to heaven, like, they don't even have to have an

address. Yeah, or. Or I could write them to mom and mail them to me.

Yes, that's what I was just gonna say. Yeah, but I mean, postcards also, it's

like around the. I don't know. Anyways, I just recently had that idea. Cause I

was like, you know, like, I miss getting non bills in the mail.

I'm like, I'm just gonna start sending myself mail. Like, I mean, I'll send it

to Shane, but it'll be to me, you. Know, I love that. Oh,

I love that too. Okay, so we're. We're getting close to time here. And I

feel like I can talk to you forever, because I can. And

I really, like, I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. And you

are, I'd say, one of the pioneers in the grief space. And you're my unofficial,

like, mentor. And I look up to you like my big sister in grief.

You know, me and B B and me. Double B.

What advice do you want to share today to someone

who's going through something similar or something that they can relate to in

your story? You know, people often ask me

for parenting advice, especially motherless mothers.

And what I always try to impart is

find ways to be proud of yourself. The thing that

I lost the most when my mom died. She was my greatest

cheerleader. So too was my dad.

But there was something about their affirmation because

Ellen had a really high bar in the best

way. And I missed so much the

idea of her being proud of me. So it's kind of twofold.

Learning to be proud of yourself and not waiting

for opportunities to be remothered.

I mean, the nurturance that's lost.

Sometimes it feels in the beginning that you

have to go it alone because you've lost the person that used to

be like the world, world's greatest collaborator and cheerleader of your

entire existence. And you have other

relationships. And I was married. But there was just

something about that

mothering feeling. And for a very long

time, I didn't allow it. And Sometimes it's because

I felt young or

immature, like, I had missed out on something. And so I had questions.

I needed advice. And I really thought, like, there was something

between needing to go it alone and toughing

through and riding solo

and then really having, like, weird

feelings about betrayal to my mother and,

I don't know, even awkward female friendships because of

it, that I feel like, do not wait

to find opportunities to feel that sense

of remothering. Notice when you're feeling

held and. And feeling that way because you need it. And

we all. We all need it. And if you. I love that advice.

And, like, yes. Like, I know

as someone whose mother is gone, like, I will take all the mothering.

I'll take all the mothering. Like, I saw a childhood friend the other day, and

her mom gave me the biggest hug, and it just felt so. Like I'm at

home. Yeah. And I think that advice is

so important. And also being proud, like, that's how this all started, with a

tattoo of my leg that says proud of you, which was from my mom. And

I think that's so important. And I think if Snoop Dogg. Snoop Dogg makes this

speech, I think it's. He's getting the walk of fame star. And he goes, I'd

like to thank me. For me, like, I. It's like, be like,

snoop Dogg. Be proud of yourself. And, like, acknowledge it out loud and

share it. Yeah. I tell my girls, I'm like, I'm so

proud of you, but I want you to be proud of you. Yeah.

Yeah. Your name is on that work. You know, they'd say to me, do you

think it's good? I'm like, do you think it's good?

Yeah. Be proud of the way that you show up in the world. And

be like. You said, be proud of you. The voice that we listen

to the most is our own.

Be kind. Be proud.

Yeah. I think a lot of the connection

that you and I have made to me, the way you reflected

back to me feels. Feels like there's, like, lots of maternal undertones, and I

think sometimes we can confuse it as a motherless daughter. I lost my mom

a long time ago. I don't really know the difference between

mentoring and remothering. Well, that's all semantics.

It is. It is, but I mean. Yeah. And I. But it's like,

it's a friendship. It's a friendship. And I believe that

we take care of one another when we need it, and that is

mothering. It's a kinship, and it has nothing to do with

kids. Yeah. It's like we're all mothers. Yeah.

You know, mother nature, like all of it. I think we all

need to be nurtured and wherever you can get it.

Yeah. Mother nature, motherfucker. All the mothers. Exactly. All the

mothers. Ellen was. She'd be so proud of you. She was

curse like a sailor and as do I. So. Hey.

Yes, yes, Ellen. Another science. Now there's science. I wish

she had lived long enough to know that, like scientifically it's like smart

and also great for emotional release. Yeah,

I love that. Well, Barry, this has been a slice all of the ways to

contact and get in touch and follow Barry as in the show notes

you can read her story about her Ellen tattoo in

resilient AF skin deep stories. So so thank you so much for joining

us today. Thank you. Love you. Love you. And thank

you to everyone who tuned into this episode. Just remember, you

are not alone. And if it's okay to not be okay, but let us be

that lighthouse in the storm. We can walk this life together. And

friends, just remember you are resilient,

afraid.