Tomorrow Mourning with Kimberly Rich | 048

Once her lungs and her kidneys were not working, the pressure that that was putting

on her heart was just enormous. And she was not able to live long

enough to receive that transplant and we lost

her. And so for me,

I can only speak for me, it was unexpected. Although

she was ill, we had a path towards recovery. It was just a matter of

time. Right. In hindsight,

I have regrets in thinking that. Right. Because I did not treat

it as a opportunity

to ask questions I wish I had asked or say things

I wish I had said or, you know, I just treated this

as we're going to get through this. We're going to get through this. And

that's hard afterwards, I think the hardest part of it is

feeling like I should have recognized the gravity

of the situation and. And I didn't.

Welcome back to another episode of Resilient AF with Blair and Alana.

But you'll notice Alana is not in the chair with me. It is Dr.

Kimberly Rich. That's the only time I'm going to use Dr. Today because she is

humble. Thank you. So Kim received

her doctoral degree from Creighton University with a research focus

in grief and bereavement. Her journey with grief started following

first recognized the power of relationship and grief and also the

ways that we can fail to support one another as end of life

approaches as well as in times of grief. In the coming months,

she accepted that her mission would be to improve how we approach death,

dying and supporting those who are grieving. She now serves as a death

doula, end of life coordinator and grief educator.

She's been published in multiple. She's been published multiple times and has a

podcast, the Only Guarantee. Kimberly is based out of the suburbs of

Chicago, Illinois, but regularly travels to support those in

needs. You can learn more about her, her websites tomorrow mourning,

LLC.com and same with her Instagram handle. And it's all going to be in

the show notes below. And I am so honored to meet you. Well, I

mean I've met you, but to have you here and for you to meet everyone

else listening. So welcome to the show, Kimberly. I'm happy

to be here with you and get to know you a little bit better. I

hope too as we talk. So happy to be here.

Before we begin, what's your mom's name? My mom's name was Donna.

Is Donna. Yes. Donna. What's like

D O N N A? Yep, it's our accent. You have the

Chicago accent and I have Canadian accent. My husband is Canadian,

and so it's so fam. It's so funny because when he is with

his family, he'll slip into it a little bit. He also

totally recognizes it. Like, the announcer at our son's high

school, like, for weeks. My husband was like, he's Canadian.

He's. And then he finally asked him. He was like, are you Canadian? He was

like, yep. And there is. Yeah, there's something slightly different. I

don't notice it as much, but. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Like, sometimes people

flat out are like, whoa, you are so Canadian. People are like, I have no

idea. What is it? Yeah, what is it that gives me

away? So, Donna, tell me. Tell me. So Donna died.

What's the date of her death? April 2nd of

2021. April 2nd. It was actually her. It

was her dad's birth. He was not alive anymore, but it was on his

dad's birth, her dad's birthday. Wow. Which I thought was kind of

a neat little connection. I don't know that it's like. I don't know if it's

supposed to be sad or comforting, but there was something about it that felt

kind of. I don't know, comforting to me.

Yes. Poetic. Like, it just felt if there was. There was

zero good to be found in the situation. But, you know, if you

were searching for something to give you comfort. I like numbers and

dates and some of that fun, you know, that stuff

can be a little bit fun. So I want to know all about

Donna. Tell me about Donna. I will tell you about her.

You know, in. I think, as

we all do in grief. Right. Most of what I

remember is perfection. There are times the

imperfect creeps back, and it actually makes me smile because it's.

It's also comforting to remember that she was a human. Right. So

when. When people die, especially those people that we're grieving

and that we miss, we just are so aware of everything we

miss. And that's probably most of what I'll share with you today. But I think

it's also important just to kind of state that

she was imperfect, too. Just like I'm imperfect. And, you know, my kids will

remember my. My flaws and. And hopefully my strengths when.

When I am gone. And. And.

And so she. She was a

great mother. And again, we had our disagreements about things,

but usually about things that as you age, wisdom, you understand.

Right. Things like curfews or. I actually

wrote in. In my Skin Deep story, like, the first time

I didn't drink at alcohol. I rarely drink alcohol

now, but I didn't drink until years after my

friends, like, my friends were drinking in high school. I didn't. I would leave

parties. I was so concerned. We used to. I ran track in cross country. We

used to have to sign a code of conduct, which is just a stupid, ridiculous

thing. But it was like, if you do anything naughty, you're off the team. And

to me, that was like a binding cond. And I was so

worried. And so it was the end of my freshman year of college. I

had a beer and I told my mom, and she just,

like, started crying because she was just so sad that, you

know, I had had a beer and. And, you

know, she was just a good person who

again, like, wanted us to be good people and to follow the

rules and to help others. And she was a teacher. She

was wonderful with children. She was wonderful with us. She.

Us on our. Our parents, both of them took us on

vacations. We traveled. We. Which. Which I didn't

recognize was unique again until I got older. And. And you

realize that not everybody does that, but we. And we drove

mostly the first time we flew anywhere was. Was to Hawaii when I

was in high school. They

school education was important to her, of course, as a teacher and

became important to me. She had a great sense of humor.

She was happy. She enjoyed being with us, watching TV

with us, taking us out to eat, taking us to the bookstore,

going to libraries, going to museums, going to the. The public

pool. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but

here in the suburbs of Chicago, like, every town has a public pool

you'd buy the pass for in the summer, and we'd go there and she'd

let us get, you know, ice cream. And when I was in college,

I'm going to age myself. I don't know, you know, the

average age of your listeners, but when I went to college, it was before you

had cell phones and texting. It was at the very beginning

of email. But you used to have to pay by the

minute for long distance, which I know is

just such a foreign concept now. But for whatever reason, Sundays were half

price. So, like, we'd call on Sundays because it was half price

and you would get twice as much time to talk. And I would always look

forward to. I went to school at Arizona State, and she

was outside of Illinois or outside of Chicago and Illinois.

So, you know, I would so look forward to calling

her on Sundays and having that time to fill her in. And I would

always feel a little homesick after talking to her just missing

out on the meals she was cooking at home, what she

was doing with. I was the oldest, so what she was doing with my sisters,

we would send letters back and forth. And then as an

adult, I had children very young. I

got married a year after I graduated college. I

had my first child when I was 23,

which is absurd now my oldest is 22.

And the thought of him being in charge of another

human is just nauseating. And I think he would agree.

I won't be embarrassed if he hears this podcast. And

I wonder, and she's gone now, so I can't ask, but I sometimes wonder now

if she thought that about. Was she just. When I was like, I'm pregnant, was

she like, what the hell? But she was so

good about calming me as a parent and

giving advice. Right. And. And even as my kids were aging and

you think you're doing it wrong because they're upset

or something didn't go right. She was really good about sharing those stories

about the times she struggled with that also

and was always supportive of my children

and my marriage and my career choices. And

there was very little that she didn't

allow me to try and cheer me on

along the way, which was awesome. I knew I was loved. And I

know now as an adult that even that in itself was a

gift. You know, I know not everyone has felt that from their mother. And I

always knew how much she cared about me. I love

that. Donna sounds amazing. She was.

Talk us through what was going on leading up to

April 2nd. Sure. So

I'm going to try to make an 18 year story very short.

You know, one of the things I struggle with when you talk about grief or

share your grief stories, and I'm sure you've heard this from other, from other people

you've talked to, is that question of

did you expect them to die? Right. People will say that. Was this expected?

And I think for people asking that question,

if you say yes, there's. I think they ask because there's some relief in that.

Right? Oh, so you knew this was coming, right? You had time to prepare, you

had time to say goodbye. I think that's kind of

a bullshit question. I think it's kind of stupid, right? But

I mean, the, the way I handle it now, I use a lot of humor,

but when people ask, I'm like, well, did I expect her to ever did?

Right. Like, I'm going to die too. So people should expect me to die. Like

there's no one who avoids it. So we should all expect to Die.

But she had been diagnosed with lymphoma in

2003. She fought that. It

was horrific.

And went into remission in

2005. She had a reoccurrence, fought that, but

she had a transplant at that time. I believe it was a

bone marrow transplant. I should have written this down because I always get it

and stem cell confused. But I believe it was a bone marrow transplant,

survived and was

relatively symptom free then from probably

she couldn't get rid of the cough and were happening.

And very long story short, her lungs were

damaged. She had what was called interstellar lung

disease is what she was diagnosed with. And it

was damage that was happening to her lungs because they believed her

body was rejecting that transplant from years and years and

years ago. And it was.

What it was doing was stiffening her lungs. So the way a

doctor explained it once to me was that normal lungs are like

a birthday party balloon where you can blow it up and the air will come

out. And you blow it up and the air comes out. But then lungs

that become more damaged and stiff are more like car tires.

So even when you're putting air in them, you don't see car tires

expand really, or deflate unless you have a

completely flat tire. And so she was starting to have a

very hard time breathing, was on oxygen. She was very

young. She was in her early 60s and

was going to need a double lung transplant. And they

actually went back and forth on that. They were like, we might be able to

do one long. We could do two kind of depending upon the

donor situation. We just want to get something right. So if we have

a donor who only has one good lung, we'll do that. If they

have two, we'll do that. And so they kind of went back and forth on

it. And there is an

enormous process you have to go through to be on the transplant list.

And that's a good thing. Mostly out of.

What do they call it? They call it out of, like, respect for the donor

and the donor's family. They want to make sure that the organs that are being

donated are going to a healthy recipient and

someone who's going to take care of them. Which I think if I was donating

my organs, I'd really appreciate that. So there's a

whole process, a training process, things you have to agree to

before you get listed. She did all of that. She

was listed in February of 21. And one of the

things that was Shared with us was that her wait time,

the average wait time is like 30 to 60 or

90 days, but that it tends to be a little shorter in the spring.

This is such a ridiculous, like, jeopardy. Fun fact. But it tends to be

a little shorter in the spring because the majority of organ

donors are people who

have been in a motorcycle accident, and motorcycle

riding tends to increase in the spring. Wow. So

such a weird side story that the transplant team shared with

us, but something that we were like. So hopefully we're looking

at 30 to 60 days here. Like, we're going to be in the shorter range

of things. And

not that we were hoping for anyone. It's such a weird

ethical thing to be involved in. Right.

Because in order to save her life, you know, it costs someone

else a life. And. And that is a separate podcast

episode. But something else to kind of talk through is the

just how that kind of messes with your emotions and your feelings. Also, when you're

hoping for this transplant and hoping for her to survive, it's a little

different than, like, a kidney transplant where you can have a living donor. So

there is also some weird emotions with that. But we were hopeful

that quickly she would be in a position to receive that lung.

While she was waiting. On March 3 of 21, she

came down with a fever. She

texted our family group text. And

it's funny, she just said, I don't want anybody to freak out, right? Because we

were all kind of nervous about her at that point. But

as I. As I mentioned, when I first started talking, I did not expect her

to die. So was it expected? No. That might have been naive

of me, but I did not. And

I don't want anybody to freak out, but I've got a fever. They want me

to go to the hospital. Well, this was the height of COVID right?

And she had been told multiple times if she got

Covid, she probably would not survive. And although she

had been really living in isolation, her and my dad both

were just in total lockdown. We were

nervous. And I remember thinking, as long

as it's not Covid, right? As long as it's not Covid. And it was

not. It was just some random virus.

It's actually a virus that you and I. I don't remember the name of

it, but you and I probably come in contact with all the time. But because

we have healthy immune systems, it doesn't even impact us. But her

immune system was wonky. She went into the hospital

March 3, and just slowly

her body started shutting down. Like, her body couldn't handle

the virus. And so she was

awake at first. After a while of being

in the hospital and things getting harder and harder, she was eventually

intubated, her kidneys shut down,

and then, you know, her heart. And the way the doctors explained it

is you have your three main organs are your lungs, your

kidneys, and your heart. And every time one of those

stops working, it puts more pressure on the others.

Once her lungs and her kidneys were not working, the pressure that that was putting

on her heart was just enormous. And she was not able to live

long enough to receive that transplant. And we lost

her. And so for me,

I can only speak for me, it was unexpected. Although

she was ill, we had a path towards recovery. It was just a matter of

time. Right. In

hindsight, I have regrets in thinking that. Right.

Because I did not treat it as a

opportunity to ask questions I wish I had asked

or say things I wish I had said or, you know, I just

treated this as, we're going to get through this. We're going to get through

this. And that's hard. Afterwards, I think the hardest

part of it is feeling like I should have

recognized the gravity of the situation

and I didn't. Kimberly, thank you for sharing all that. Like,

that's quite a harrowing story, and I can't

even imagine what that would have been like, having to go through that.

And it's what really resonates with me in that is, you know, at

the beginning, you're like, you know, like, yes, I know my mom will die. Like,

I will die. We're all gonna die. But then just now you're saying, like, it

was unexpected. Yeah, it's really interesting. So

our Mom, Sharon, died February

gosh. Right next to each other. So she learned she

had cancer and died three weeks later.

And that's the older story also. Yeah. So, but

I. But it's interesting because, like, I'm the older daughter and I have a different

relationship with my mom than my sister, who was like, like, almost codependent. Well,

she was codependent. Like, she'll admit that. And when my mom was

sick, I actually, like, live in a different part of Canada than her. She

went into the hospital and was like, blair, I need help, like, with the cat.

I'm like, okay, I'll buy a one way ticket, no problem. It wasn't, oh,

you're terminal. And when I. When I got home, they let her out of the

hospital and she didn't look okay at all. And I was like this,

like, selfishly I'm glad they let her out, but they shouldn't have. But, like,

she was gray and, like, looked like she was going. Like, she

looked like she was dying. And then a couple days later, we took her back

to the hospital because she was in so much pain. And they said, you're covered

in tumors. You have two weeks left to live. And she died three days later.

And it's interesting because when that was happening,

I was like, oh, she's. She's going to die. Where? My sister was in such

denial that, like, it just wouldn't. She couldn't process it.

But then we started talking, and she's like, this was my worst nightmare. I'm like,

what was your worst nightmare? She's like, mom dying. I'm like, that's crazy, because in

my head, not once did I think about when mom dies. When mom dies. Because

my grandma lived to be 91, and her diet was chicken fingers and

Chinese food, and she smoked like a chimney and, like, was

not a beacon of health. Like, she would walk from her house to the bus

around the mall and gambled. And, like, so in my head, I was like,

okay, well, mom's not to going. Gonna die till she's in her 90s. Also, we

don't have to worry about this today, right? So crazy, because, like, so I've never

once thought, oh, my God, my big fear is mom dying. And then when I

saw mom sick, I was like, she's gonna die. Where? My sister's biggest fear was

mom dying. And then it was happening, and she was in this denial. And it's

just so interesting how that happens. The brain is

fascinating, isn't it? It is. It's fascinating. And I think with you, like,

I mean, you. You said you have some regrets, like, not treating it

as if it was, like, what were some of the questions you wish you would

have asked her? Well, and that's

what's fascinating. Or fabulous. I'll say. Fabulous

is the first two to three weeks

she was in the hospital, she was awake. She was not intubated yet, right? And

we would go. And two people could visit her per day. There were all these

ridiculous rules because of COVID right? So it was two visitors a

day, and that's it. And so we would take

turns, and we'd rotate and we would go,

though. And so if two people. Let's say you and I are both visiting today,

right? And Blair, you go in the morning, and I go in the afternoon. You

go in the morning, and of course, you're like, give me the update. What's going

on? What are doctors saying? What's. Are you better? You know, how's the medicine? Are

you still nauseous? Are you. And then you talk to her for an hour.

You give her an update on the kids, whatever. You leave, I go

in, I start the same shit, right? I'm like, how are you feeling? What's the

update? What medicine? And. And so I went home from one visit.

I left and came home, and I have four children, and I. And

they're. They're adults. You know, children is. Is probably

the not right. It's not the right legal term for them anymore, but I birthed

them, so I'm going to call them that forever. And I remember

sitting at dinner with them and being like, guys, like, today

I felt really bad because I feel like Grandma's

trapped in this room, right? And all she gets is this

rotating group of visitors who are like, what's wrong

today? How do you feel? What medicine are you taking? How many times have you

thrown up? Did you poop? What's like just stupid stuff.

And. And that's an exaggeration, right? Did we also

share some fun stories? I played. We played Yahtzee one day. There's,

you know, other little fun things in there. But I was

like, when I go back to visit Grandma, and I think it was like, in

two days, I was going back. When I go back, I don't want to

do that to her, right? So let's think of a list of questions.

Let's come up with a list of questions for Grandma and I.

I have it still in my phone. I opened the notes in my phone. We're

all eating dinner, and people are just shouting out questions, right?

My son said, who was grandma's

best friend? Yeah. And then my daughter added, who was

her first best friend? And then

one of the other kids was like, who was her best best friend? So we

have, like, three questions on best friends, right? It was like, who is your

first. Who was your best best friend? Who's your current best friend?

You know, we started writing questions about her

marriage and meeting my dad and about her career and

about raising children and. And we were putting

funny ones in there, too, I think. I put in, like, who is your favorite

child and who. You know, things that she would actually probably never

answer. She wouldn't want to commit to that. But I wanted to go in,

and I was like, I'm just going to start interviewing her and learning more about

her. Then

she was intubated, and I never got to talk to her again, I never asked

her a single question. So

those questions all sit in my phone. And

one of the things I'm actually talking about with

a publisher right now is actually going through the process of

interviewing people in her life to try to find the answers

to those questions through other people, which,

of course, is someone else's perception of what she would answer. Right.

We don't know that those would be her answers. I often say to

people, I'm the only one who speaks for me. Right. Because anyone else

who speaks for me is making assumptions about how I would answer.

But it would also give. Provide some

closure to something that. To a door that still is wide

open. Right. And how fun would it be to talk to her siblings and her

friends and her co workers and her, you know, just

everybody and say, do you know the answers to any of these?

I love that. I was just gonna say, you should put the questions up on

Facebook and, like, kind of get it out there. You're on it. You're 18

steps ahead of me. And I love that you did that.

You know, when. When our mom, like, our mom turned really fast, I actually had

people under. I made a Facebook post, and I had people under the Facebook post.

I'm like, share your favorite memories. Oh, yeah. Share your

favorite memories of, like, you and our mom. But it's interesting

because, like, you're right with the questions. I

mean, like, it's so hard to know what you don't

know. And then they're gone. And you want to know something, and you're like,

how am I gonna find out? Just, like three weeks ago,

I was. You know, you get those little griefy bursts. I don't. I don't cry

regularly anymore. I did for a while, but

I was at the doctor, and the doctor asked me. We're

starting to have that conversation about, could you be. Could this be related to

menopause or perimenopause? Right. These symptoms I'm having.

And she was like, when did your mom start menopause? And I was

like, I don't know. But

my belief is she didn't because she started chemotherapy.

And I think that kind of pushes that process along.

Right. So I don't think she started it naturally, but I'm actually not

100% positive. And then they were like, well, do you know about your

grandmother? And I was like, well, no, I never talked to my mom about that,

but at the same. Your maternal grandmother. But then it occurred to me, my

maternal grandmother died when she was 45. My mom

was a teenager when her mom died. And so

I was like, I doubt. So then I said that out loud. I was like,

I doubt she ever did. She died when she was 45. And. And then I

just. The tears started right where you're like, here's this thing that your doctor is

like, this is important information, which I don't know how much it really

matters. Do a couple blood tests and see where my hormones are at. Right. But

it matters a little bit. And I will never have the

answer to that question. I don't know. And so those are

that. One of the things I teach people as a death doula is that

what is written remains because all of the things that are

stuck in our hearts and in our heads are going to die with us. Right.

All of that knowledge, all of that history, whether it's something as boring as

when did you start menopause? Or something as thrilling as who

was your best. Best friend. If we don't write those things

down, at some point we're going to be gone. And that. That legacy is going

to be gone with us. But, you know, I wish I knew more.

I wish I had been smarter and asked those questions earlier. Yeah,

I. You know, my. So

my. Both my parents are gone and I'm 40 my grand.

Thank you. But my grandma's still alive. She's nine. She'll be 92.

And I was just in Winnipeg visiting the family for the Jewish

holidays for this new year. Rosh Hashanah and my. Kapoor and Rosh

Hashanah. Yeah. So I went to my grandma's house,

Babalea, and she's actually in our most. One of our. One of our

books, Resilient af. I saw that you posted about that. Yeah.

Babalea is legendary. But anyways, she actually has

one of these books where she's supposed to fill in. Oh, yes. But she's like,

I'm not doing this. Stop it. It's almost

like when we're with you. You can't use the Jewish guilt to, like, get her

in there to do it. You know, she's just kind of like, I'm old. I

don't want to do this. Like. Like, she, I think is just like,

meh. So I think my sister, when she's there, maybe asks

questions. Like, I try to ask a lot of questions. That's why I put

her in our book. I was like, I want to know a story of resilience.

And her story is about how her mom, like my namesake. So my great

grandma, came over from Russia where we fled the pogroms, you know, the typical.

Yes. Trying to murder the Jews. We fled. They

destroyed our property. My grandma came over. She worked in, I think a popcorn factory,

but. But eventually started a dress shop in the early

1900s. Where were they? Winnipeg. Okay.

And most of my family is still there. Okay. And anyways, but

she worked. She was the breadwinner and she worked all the time. So my

grandma was raised mostly by like, I don't know what, I can't remember what she

calls them, but like nannies, essentially the community, right? Yeah, nannies. Like,

she had straight, essentially, like hired help raising her. And then eventually her

grandpa moved in. But she. Her biggest, like, she

had this like, resentment of like, my mom was never around when I needed her.

So she decided when she was a mom to be a stay at home mom.

But it's just interesting. So anyways, I was just like, interested to see what story

of resilience. And like, you know, there's a little bit of like, she had one

anti Semitic experience, which is amazing because, like, I've had like many.

And. Right. You know, I was like, what are some of the stories? And that's

like the one that, like, because she's older, it's kind of on repeat, but. But

I think capturing stories while you can. So it's like when I'm there, I try

to get her to talk and like, I love tell me things and I always

learn something new and I. Don'T know, I mean,

she'll be gone. This podcast should be a reminder to those listening,

like, ask the questions, write down the answers. Like, amen.

Kimberly, have you shared this list of questions? No,

no, I have my. I mean, my husband. But I mean, you should share them.

Because, like, if they're generic, if they're general enough, I should. That's a

great idea, like, for other people. And you can. There you go. There's

your freebie. You're gonna download a freebie and grow your email list.

I'll do it. Yeah. The list of questions. So my background's

marketing and offline. I was talking about, do you have a gift for our audience?

Do you have a freebie? She's like, no, but I should. I'm like, well, we'll

come up with it probably during the show. There it is. And there we go.

It's like a checklist of like, find out this. The cool stuff about the people

you. Love and it'd be cool for people to add to it. Right. Like, tell

me. Because it's not that. It's not an exhaustive list of questions.

There's so many questions you can ask. Yes, but just to get to.

Instead of sitting with people and just. Well, especially in

this the States right now, our Canadian family likes to give us a hard time,

but it's so easy to just start these

gross conversations about politics and

argue and none of it is life giving, right?

Like, if this is my last day on earth, that is not how I

want to spend it is having those conversations. But it can

be so hard to switch to something different. But if you have these

handy and you just start asking people like, who is.

Who was your first best friend and why do you call them that? Right. And

why were they that? And, and to have that, I think would just

one change the dynamic of the room totally. Because people

love sharing their stories. They love it. That's probably

why your podcast is so fantastic, right? Because people get to come on. I

love when people ask about my mom because I don't get to talk about her

often. I will always listen to you talk. About

Donna and in me. If

you have not shared much about your father, but your mother, your father, those people

who are gone, any opportunities us Grievers have

to tell their stories is so healing.

But we can only tell the stories we know. Right? And so if you

have people in your life who you have the opportunity to get

to know better, you should be. And these

conversations are so much richer than any sports

conversation or politics conversation or anything else in.

In my humble opinion that you could be having. So I agree.

Okay, so you're amazing. So you, so

you. So you like went to school for grief and bereavement,

the school of life and the of like school at

Creighton University. And now you. So you're a death

doula. You are a grief educator, you're an end of

life coordinator. You have a podcast, your business

tomorrow morning, llc. Like, what is it that like you do

a whole bunch of things? Yeah, yeah, I, you

know, it's interesting. I was a teacher. So I was a teacher in a school

principal elementary school for over 20 years. And

my degree was actually in women

in leadership roles within the education system. And

I changed it when my mom died. So I was three years into my degree

work and my research and I dumped it and said,

I just don't give a shit about this anymore. Which I think a

lot of grievers have that story of something in their lives that they were like,

this does not resonate with me anymore. Right. And

even teaching didn't. And I loved teaching

so much and I was like, this is for the Birds like it doesn't

have the same purpose and it's not life giving. And you said

something, I think before we started recording. But how, what did you say? You

said it's your goal to live. What did you say? Every day. Oh, I

want to live a life I don't want to retire from and I don't want

to. So like we were just, so we. So for those of you who are

like, what are they talking about? But we just checked in, we're recording on a

Monday and we were just doing a check in on like, how's your day? And

Kim was like telling me how awesome it is and that she loves Mondays. And

I was saying, you know what? Like, I've decided to design a life I don't

want to retire from. So Mondays, to me, like, they're not something to dread.

I usually keep them clear. And I love Mondays. Yeah. And like, why

don't we all design a life like that where we don't have to dread. Like,

obviously there's things I dread. Like, like, sure, you know, like, like admin.

Certain admin things. I'm very, very like, you know, ready. And I'm terrible at

QuickBooks because I don't care. But I, Yeah,

I mean I'm good at making money and spending money, but coming to manage the

books, I have to hire someone. Amen. But like, we don't need

to dread Mondays. We don't need to live for the

weekends. So I went through this huge career change because I was like, I

don't care about this. And someone said to me, well, what do you care about?

And it was interesting because I was, was fully grieving at that

point. Like the ball filled the jar. Right.

And for whatever reason I decided to let my rage

out. And, and I'm not, I don't do that very often. I'm a pretty

calm person. But I, I just said I care

that like when my mom died I realized how

awful. I don't know about Canada, I have

a decent idea. But like the death and dying industry, there is.

There's no education, no one there to help you. We don't know what we're doing,

especially at end of life. You know, I mean, when,

when my mom was actively dying,

there were nurses and doctors in and out of the room constantly.

But no one said to us, you're probably going to see this

or this is going to happen. So we were left

traumatized by some of the things we witnessed. They knew it was going to

happen. They knew it. They didn't tell us because it's probably

hard to tell us, right? That's baloney. Right? And. And so

I. I kind of started just emptying my anger on this

person who was like, what do you care about? And I was like, I care

that we are safeguarding information that could be

saving people from trauma, that could be helping people to understand that

the body knows what it's doing, that these things are happening for a reason,

that dying isn't painful because it's.

Your body knows how to do it. And there were all of

these things. No one told us how to plan a funeral or

if. Do you have to call the funeral home before you release the

body to the funeral home? Do we have to see if they have room? Is

there, like, do they fill up? Do they not? Zero education,

but here's all the paper. And by the way, we need

it within two hours. We need it within 24 hours. We need it.

You're like, what the am I supposed to do? Yeah,

I've never done this before. I get it. That I was destined for

it, that I was destined to lose my parents. The only way to avoid it

was to die first, which, you know, isn't what I wanted.

Yet no one prepared me for this. So I kind of had this, like,

rage moment. No one tells you about grieving, why I

can't stop crying, why I have kidney stones,

why I. All of it. And I felt like I was

overreacting because people lose their moms

all the time. Now. I was younger than the average person,

but why? Why am I like this? And

now I know, Blair, because I've talked to so many people that

most people do feel the way I felt, but we don't talk about

it. We don't share it. So when you're feeling it, you feel like you're doing

it wrong or like you need medication

or a hospitalization. Because. Why can't I shake this

right? Well, you can, and you don't shake it. It. You don't. But I didn't

know that. And because we don't know, like, you're right. Society doesn't

talk about all of that stuff. So experts like you.

And that was where my passion grew. And I was like, forget this research

on women in leadership. I want to research this stuff.

And while I was researching it on the side, I also became certified as a

death doula. I took separate classes to earn my certification

there. And. And now what my

goal is is to make death and

dying easier for the person who is dying,

but also for their family members. I want their family

members to understand what's going to happen and what it's going to look like.

And I want the people who are dying to

see where they have control, right? That is the ultimate loss of

control. Because most people that I have worked with

are not ready to die. And some have been in their 80s, some

been in their 20s. They're not ready.

So how do I give them control back where they can have

it? Right? And that's in. Do you want to write your own obituary? Do

you want to plan your own memorial like it's. We

spend hours first talking about how

this is shit. You shouldn't be dying

and you don't want to die. But now let's talk about where you

have control. What do you want that room to smell like when you're non

verbal? Who do you want in that room? And sometimes I'm the

person sitting with Aunt Bethany

in the living room because she's not invited in that room. And I

have to remind Aunt Bethany that the person who's dying

gets to decide what their death looks like. And I

listen to Aunt Bethany's grief, and I listen to Aunt Bethany talk about

why she's entitled to be in there. And I listen and I hold her

hand and I cry with her. And I do all of it as a

gift to the person who is dying and should get to die

the way they want to, listening to the music they want to, surrounded

by the people they want there, smelling their favorite scents, whether

it's vanilla or evergreen or apples or

lavender. And. And then I take

what I learn. So what's great about all the different things I do

is that I take what I learn in those situations and get to help the

grievers, right? And. And I take what I learned from the

grievers to help those people who are dying prepare their families

for what's coming next. And everything I do

kind of balances everything else out.

And the variety

really feeds me and gives me a lot of life. I love writing.

I love it. It's very therapeutic for me. I run a

writing workshop for grievers, and I run a

writing group Through Writers Rising, we have silent writing.

There's a group of us who do silent writing hours where we just gather together

and sit quietly on zoom and write. And then at the end, we have about

30 minutes to share or ask for advice and talk.

And so when I write now, I get to write about grief

and about death and dying and share that with people.

I like talking. So podcasts are pretty easy for me. And

you know, all of it together right now

is making it feel like I have a job I don't ever

want to retire from, which I hope I don't ever have to. Well,

you won't. That's my hope. What is retirement? Right.

I hope it's dying. Because

what's awesome also about what I do right now, and probably

you have some of this, is

I also get to decide when and

how I do this. Right? So in. In some ways, that's one of the

gifts now, too. Like, I just worked through the weekend. We had a. We had

a memorial for one of my clients

who, who was in his 20s, and

it was, you know, probably a 400 person memorial. And I worked all weekend.

But. But this Friday, my son is coming home from college to

visit, and it's my husband's birthday. And I, I've

kept that day wide open. Right. So the same can be true as

I age. If my husband and I want to go to Europe for two

weeks, we can. But then I can still write when I get back. I

hope, Even if I'm 80, you know, I hope I just

keep doing this forever, but that I always have a really healthy balance with

living a life that's rich and full and where I just

keep seeking joy and trying to help other people.

I love that. I think that's beautiful. All right, so as we wrap up, and

I feel like there might need to be a part two, your story is going

to be in Resilient AF Skin Deep Stories, which comes out in December.

Thank you for that opportunity. I love it. I love when what I

write can be out there. And I love

that that is going to be a book. The story is about my daughter

and I, and I love that that's something she's going to be able to show

her children someday. So I am really grateful, grateful to you

for the opportunity for me to have another piece of

my story and my legacy permanently in the

world. So thank you. You're welcome. And it's my pleasure. I,

you know, this is my vessel, my give back from everything I went through. Maybe

I'll come on your podcast and tell you all about it. That'd be amazing. We

will have to do that. We're gonna swap. I would love that. But, yeah,

I, I want to wrap up with you sharing a piece of

advice. Now, I'm not going to give you any sort of guidelines for that because

of the work that you do and the experiences that you have, but maybe something

that's resonating with you from, you know, what you're carrying with you right now.

What, what advice do you have? Maybe for someone who is going through either

something you help your clients through or something similar to what you have been through.

It's so funny. I just led a workshop. I don't know if you've heard of

the book My wife said, you may want to marry me.

It's an amazing book. It's about a woman who

was dying and she basically put an advertisement

in the newspaper for her husband because she wanted him to remarry. They still

had young children. She wanted them to have a female role

model. It's an amazing book. But I have

a book club for Grievers and the author visited us and it was so interesting

because we asked him what is a piece of advice he would give.

And this was just recently. And so when you first asked me that, the thing

I think of was his response. And he said, I'm not in the business of

giving advice. And it was so perfect,

right? Because like, you always want to be careful about that because one of

the things we know about grief is that it's so individual, right? And it's

different for everybody. And so when you start

giving advice, there are going to be people listening to your podcast who are going

to say, I totally disagree with that because their grief experience was different.

Or I agree with that because some part of their

grief experience mirrored mine. But I think what I

can land on instead of the grief part is

that knowing and recognizing

that you are going to die. Right? So back to that

question I mentioned earlier of was it expected?

Start expecting your own death and not in an

anxiety ridden, painful way,

thinking it's going to be tomorrow, but expect that you are

going to die. That is probably going to happen. I don't think the

science is going to change that in any of our lifetimes.

And live like you are

going to die, which I get is so

cliche. And people who hear that think it's ridiculous. But

it matters because you are going to die.

And so how are you going to fill your time? How are

you going to spend your time? Use that when you're trying to decide whether to

say yes or no to an invitation, right? And you can

use it to motivate you to say yes and push yourself out of your

comfort zone because someday you're going to die and not have that opportunity.

You can also use it to say no because I don't want to be

uncomfortable tonight. I want to be comfortable and that experience

is going to be uncomfortable for me. I have a chart

that's behind me. That's like literally behind my back. And you can kind of

see it there if I scooch. And it's the coolest poster

that, that I found that has a little box

for every week of your life. And it

goes up until like your 80th birthday and every week you

color in one box. And I really like it and

I love thinking about it it by the week because

we. I think it's impossible to make every day matter.

I think that's why it pisses people off when you're like, make every moment count.

Because some days you just have to do laundry or go

to your breast exam, right? Or like pay your taxes and

we have to do stupid stuff like QuickBooks. You can't make

every single day matter and lead a responsible life, but

you can make an effort

to build your legacy. I think on a weekly basis. Did I

do something When I color that box every Thursday, because I was

born on a Thursday, when I color that box,

I think back on the past week and think, did I do something?

And even if it was taking one of my kids to

the zoo or it was a fun

date with my husband, or seeing a friend I haven't seen in a while, or

if it's something bigger, like going on a trip,

publishing a book, you know, like, did this week matter? And I. I think

that's important. So maybe if you start to think about it on a weekly basis,

not a daily basis, and try to fit something into each week

that will make you feel like you are living a life of purpose and

joy, I think that that would be great.

I love that. That's amazing. Well, I

really appreciate you joining us today on the podcast. If you want

to get deeper into Kimberly's world, all of her links are in the show

notes. And thank you so much for. Thank you

story. I'm sorry I talk so much because you've got this.

Well, yeah, but, you know, I said a lot of words. It's okay.

People have been listening to me for years. It's. It's totally fine. And you

know what? Thank you to everyone who tuned in for another episode of Resilient af.

Let us be that lighthouse in the storm for you. It is okay to

not be okay. And life is fucking hard. But

you don't have to go through it alone. So just remember, friends,

you are resilient af. Thank you. Thanks, Blair.