Ep 120: Not Your Average Doctor with Dr. Sherry Walling

You ever wonder what success actually means?

How do you get it?

And how do you keep it?

We all want it yet sometimes it feels only some of us get to have it.

Can you put it in a box?

How can you get it?

Can people take it away? Or are you the one with the power?

Does it mean the same to all of us? Or are we the ones that create it?

From PGA golf pros to doctors, CEOs, entrepreneurs and spiritual mentors. We get together to meet with successful people from around the globe to dissect success for vibrant conversations and interviews. Make sure you click the subscribe button on the app store because each week we will drop a new episode to bust through the myths around success and dissect its true meaning.

Welcome back to another episode of dissecting success. It's me Blair Kaplan Venables, and I'm flying solo. Well, I'm not flying solo, but I'm not with my business bestie Teresa today, but that's okay. Because I'm here with actually someone who is so phenomenal. I met her over, actually about a year ago, almost a year ago today. And she she changed my life, what her work in this world has changed my life. And so I am so honored that she is taking the time to be here with all of you. So Dr. Sherry Walling is a clinical psychologist, Speaker podcaster author and mental health advocate, her companies and founder helps entrepreneurs and leaders navigate transition, rapid growth last and any manner of complex human experiences. And guess what, we're human full of lots of human experiences. And I think most of them are complex. The reason not only just to change my life because she's such a like, a ball of positive light. But she's, she's been through some hard things. And she wrote a book called touching to worlds. And I'm gonna not talk too much about it, but she gifted me a copy before it came out right after I met her. And it really helped me navigate some very, very deep parts of my grief. So there's so many different aspects to her. And, like, not only is she a brilliant mind, but she's also would you say you're a circus performer.

I am an amateur circus artists.

Yeah, she's just yeah, anyways, they're just like, she's amazing. And so without further ado, I want you to meet my friend, Sherry. Hi, Sherry.

Hey, Blair, so good to be with you. Thanks for having this conversation with me today.

I love it. And I love that you've like combined your like you've turned to silks and circus movement. That is what is called circus movement to help you with grief. Yeah,

my life has taken such an unusual turn, right. I trained as a clinical psychologist to like talk to people about their feelings and about their experiences. And I still do that. And I think it's really, really, really important to have those safe spaces. But my own journey through grief has led me to do this very unexpected, deep dive into circus arts. So I do the Flying Trapeze, and I trained on aerial fabrics. And I'm getting into something called Serial, which is this like big spinny thing. And for somebody who didn't grow up as like a dancer, or gymnast or anything, I'm coming into this very athletic world in my 40s and I'm absolutely delighted I love it. But it's such an unexpected surprise.

You know what, I love that because it's interesting, like I'm a I'm not a yogi, but I love yoga. And I only once did like an aerial silks yoga class, and I loved it and I was like, I want to do silks. Like I wanted to do more silk work and just where I live like I'm having kind of trouble finding the right place. But you know you've kind of reignited this like curiosity in me, especially when you're posting videos and you literally swinging from like a trapeze. Like that's, that's like takes me back to like being a little kid going to like the Shriners circus and like, thinking like, Oh my God, these people are like wild and brave and

it's a little bit like being on the playground to get like, I don't know if you remember there was like bars there were bars in my playground when I was in elementary school. And the really cool kids could like spin around them. They'd like hook a knee and like basically somersault around this bar, and I couldn't ever do that, but I thought it was really cool. And so I feel like I'm returning to life on the playground where so much of the activity of my day involves like swinging from things or jumping off of things or just exploring what's possible in the body.

Yeah. So why the Okay, let's I want to kind of talk about this, and you can take the conversation wherever you want. But I know you, you found this in a place of grief. How did that happen?

Yeah, so there was a sort of a series of events. I moved from California to Minnesota, I followed my husband who sold his company to a company in Minnesota. And so I've been this outdoor like surfer, I'd been sort of an athletic kind of person, but um, I needed an indoor activity when I moved to Minneapolis,

and for those, yeah. miniapp. Okay, so I'm actually currently recording this from my hometown in Winnipeg. Very similar weather.

Yeah, we have like three feet of snow on the ground right now, like solidly.

It's blizzarding. I think it's snowing sideways right now. So I got it. So indoor activities, this time, yours is good

indoor activity. So I went similar to what you did to an aerial yoga class. And I was like, this is cool, you know, you wrap your foot in a fabric and you can stretch more deeply, this is really, really helpful for the body. So I was kind of hooked and I was curious. And then basically, I just kept leveling up from there, as I So shortly after I took that area go the class, my dad was diagnosed with cancer, he died from that diagnosis. 18 months later, my brother who had been struggling with addiction really took a very deep dive into his illness, kind of alongside my dad's illness. So I lost my dad. And then six months later, I lost my brother to suicide. And then about a year after that, I lost a little girl who'd been living in our family for four years, who was sort of a foster to adopt, kiddo, she went back to live with her bio family. So I had this series of losses. And I found that I really craved going to the studio and getting up in the fabric and spinning and swinging and sort of doing these motions that I think if nothing else, at the time just took my mind off of the heartache that was going on in my life. And it also provided this place of community, it provided this place eventually of a lot of joy. But you know, at first it sort of started as like a healthy distraction.

Yeah, and I liked that you said that a healthy distraction. Because in the situ, first of all, I am so sorry, for all that loss, like that's a lot in a very short period of time. It's a lot even in a long period of time. And when you say the words healthy distraction, I just want to like, I want to stop there for a sec, because, like for the listeners out here, know that I've been sober for four years. And so a lot of people who go through what you've went through or what I've went through, they turn to substances, to numb to distract. And it's really interesting, because I chose sobriety before I had all the loss in my life that I had. And I wish I would have turned to something a bit healthier. But it was like the height of COVID. And he couldn't really leave the house. So I turned to like food. And like, I guess in some ways, it's better than an alcohol or drug. You know, not many, but I think what you're saying is like, you know, we reach for what's accessible to us, and you are already dabbling in silks. But you know, it was such a healthy distraction for you. And I think it's cool, because you started it when things weren't hard. Yeah. So you already, you know, had your toe dipped in they

had a little bit of a foundation, it would have been a very difficult thing to start cold in the midst of inner turmoil and chaos. Yeah. You know, I think healthy distractions. You know, sometimes food can be a healthy distraction, right? It sort of depends on what you do with it and how far you take it. And you know, how it shows up in your what relationship you have with it over the course of time. I think a really lovely distraction is one that does take your mind off of something, but then eventually has the power to bring you back to yourself. Right? It sense it kind of deepens your connection to who you were originally. Maybe that's not day one. But I think that's part of the process of I won't say healing, but I think it's part of the journey of walking through something very difficult and coming to a new place of balance or equanimity. Yeah.

And what I think is also really interesting is that element of play and how you talked about when you're a kid in the playground in the bar, and that you found this element of play, and movement. I But I mean, I lost my mom and my dad. But when I lost my mom like it felt like I all of a sudden grew up and I lost this part of me that was a child like I no longer the child then when my dad died, I was like, Oh God, I'm,

I'm a full blown orphan. Yeah, I

felt like an orphan, but also full grown up. And so like, I think, I mean, thinking about this, it's like, I gotta go home and books and play because, you know, finding that element of like, yeah, you're still you still have this new thing, you and this, like, you could still be a kid and have that freedom of movement, you know, can be really healing. But yeah, I don't know. And what inspired you that? Did any of this inspire you to write touching two worlds? Like what's like, how did that happen? How did that bridge of taking what you experienced, and your lessons, translate into inspire, you know, mu being inspired to write this book.

So touching two worlds, that the title really tells for me the story of living in grief, and in sorrow and illness and death, of sort of being immersed in that world, as you well know what it feels like to be immersed in that world. But then also feeling really connected to aliveness to joy to movement, to circus, to my children to travel to things that felt beautiful and wonderful. And I think it was a surprise to me how fully I could be in both places at one time, that I could be in this phase of my life where there's significant loss and grief, and be really present to that like not skip over it, not pretend it's not happening, not numb, not run, not hide, be in it, and also create enough space and expansion within myself for joy. So I wrote because I needed to write I wrote, because that's what I did at three in the morning when I couldn't do anything else, right? I couldn't sleep, there wasn't much point in watching TV, like I just would write. And I decided to share that as a book because it really felt like a conversation that I wanted to have with people about the ability to, you know, sort of do this time travel being be in two places at one time.

I love that. And you actually have another book to the entrepreneurs guide to keeping your shit together.

Yes. Yeah, that's the first book that I wrote. It's a little bit like mental health one on one for entrepreneurs. That's my sort of my primary job. When I'm not doing circus when I'm not going to funerals and like helping myself with grief. I at one point had a very clear job and a trajectory, which was all about mental health and entrepreneurship.

You know, I It's so funny, like, because I met you literally couple months after my dad died. So I was like, in the thick of it. I wasn't even aware you wrote that. So I'm like, I gotta get my hands on that book. It's interesting, because I have I'm so vocal about what I went through. I have a lot of people reaching out to me, like, what books do you recommend and your book is the one book I always make sure that people read. Because the way I love it is that you you talk about your experiences that you give exercises. And I feel like anyone from any age can can do this and can go through it. And you know, we're all going to face grief. We're all going to face it, whether it's when you're a teenager or a child, in your in your 60s, like I have people who are my parents age who still have their parents alive, like Yeah, it's, you know, it's very interesting, but had it so how did you get into, like, being a psychologist like, what? What inspired you to do this?

That's, that's such a big question. I think most psychologists are raised to be psychologists a little bit like, I'm the oldest daughter in a family. I had a my mom had a disability my whole life. She has MS. So I was just really used to like, observing what people needed and helping and kind of reading emotions. I could just sort of see between the lines like, probably before I could actually read. That was what my family needed for me. And it's also really in line with my gifting and with what brings me joy. So thankfully, I found a path that felt fluid and was a combination of what I naturally was drawn to what I genuinely love. And you know what the world was asking of me?

Yeah, I love that because it's like a pretty big journey to become a psychologist. It's interesting that you said that because I actually wanted to be a psychologist, like I always wanted someone who would ask me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I was like a psychologist. So I went through university in my first year and I did all the intro classes, like the Intro to Psychology, Sociology, I was like, Whoa, I need one of these. I should not become one. So I went into public relations and got myself a therapist eventually. But I think like it's such important work. And especially because like as you go through like, you talk about mental health and entrepreneurship and you went through all this grief that you're now able like to not just help people navigate it, but from firsthand experience of what you've done, you're able to help them translate it right into.

Yeah, the well is deep for me. And sometimes I feel like that's unfortunate right? Sometimes I wish I just had like a really normal not so sad life. But this morning I was talking to a woman who runs a business, like super successful woman has an adult son who is also very successful, but is deeply deeply suicidal, like just struggling to kind of cling to life. And I'm talking to his mother. And I just felt within myself such a knowing such a wealth of both clinical knowledge about what might be helpful this treatment that medication, this expert, but also this deep assurance that I could sit with her and say to her, this is how that you're walking through. But also every fiber in me knows that this is survivable for you. Worst case scenario, this is survivable for you. And she's just sort of looked at me a little bit like it was crazy. But then I think she sort of like saw the crazy in my eyes enough to be like shit, this woman probably knows what she's talking about. So when you hold these kinds of stories, and you let them sad, like the let them be part of you, you let them shape you. And I am lucky enough to hold them alongside really, really excellent training and experience in a professional way. And so, you know, when I think about, you know, this larger conversation that we're having about what does it mean to be successful. There's an element of like, when all of you gets to fire, like all the cylinders at the same time, like my mind, my heart, my soul, my lived experience, the things that I think are important, I get to bring into one conversation in a way that I feel like matters, it makes a difference to this woman, that I have both this level of empathy, and this level of professional experience. So that feels like success that feels like flow state, it feels like all of the pieces fit together for some bigger reason. And I just get to walk toward it and be in it.

I think that's beautiful. Like, let's dive into the feeling of success a bit more. What, what does success feel like to you?

I think it feels to me like flow state, like being a little bit outside of time. And I guess I want to clarify the language too, because sometimes when we talk about success, it's a static term, it feels like you're successful or not successful, like you've arrived at some place in your life where you've earned it the label success or successful. I don't really believe in that, I don't feel like that I feel like success is just, it's an emerging states, not some place that you arrive in are there. It's not static, it's dynamic. And so this sense of dynamic Success for me is, again, when when everything's firing together, when there's a sense of flow, when I'm not effortfully, like pushing or contorting, or trying to make myself be something that the moment requires. But when I find that I have everything in everything that's needed in a given moment.

Dynamic success. You know, I love that I've never heard that. And it's interesting, because I mean, Teresa often talk about how success isn't a destination, like the journey is success. And it's always changing and shifting. And I liked that you put that into like the concept of dynamic success because that that helps put up like a a bit more clear of a label on what I visualize success to be in my brain. And I think I've never heard that before. So I think that's brilliant, because we've been doing this for two years. And a lot of the like, a lot of people feel success is in the same realm of like freedom and flow and you know, but I love that you said that in this in the state of flow is so important because you know, when you're in it, things just are easier. How do you get into a state of flow?

You know, for me, it is ironically, letting go of a lot of thoughts. It doesn't mean my brains not working, but it's like the the metacognition the like, Am I doing well? Am I doing like the self evaluation is off. The like appraisal in the moment is off. There's just a state of being and being fully in whatever's happening. So I don't know that you get into it super intense. Originally, but I do think there are practices that help you get out of your own way. I think about this a lot actually on the Flying Trapeze. If you watch someone on a trapeze, a really beautiful trapeze artist looks effortless, like they're using the physics of the swinging pendulum in to sort of accelerate their movement. So it looks like they're really floaty, like they're not doing anything. Of course, what they're doing is actually very, very difficult and tactical. But there's an ease to it. And I think the ease is probably another word for that kind of flow state that you find when you've integrated these parts of you into success.

That's so beautiful. And what lessons like you know, you started with silks are working on trapeze and you said you're working on a new, a new, circus

validated serializer modality it's called the steering wheel, you stand in it and spin like your top.

I love that. How do you think the these experiences like adding these elements to your life are impacting your professional life with you know, your businesses like your your profession, as a psychologist, your business, you're so inspiring of your writing. Because I mean, I know you're not supposed to assume anything, but because you've written two books. And as someone who likes to write, you're probably always somewhat writing.

Yeah, always writing. I think my circus practice is really amazing and helping me study myself. So especially in the trapeze, there's a moment where you put one hand on the bar, and it's time to jump off the platform. But there's this split second where you have to take I have to take a breath and just study myself and focus. Like think about where my hands go, think about where my body goes. And those little tiny pauses that give us the space to breathe and to settle. I find that I'm using that skill in a lot of different places in my life, but it's from the trapeze because the trapeze is really scary. And I've started flying without safety lines, which means it's just me and the bar, there's a net. So, you know, there's there's not totally stupid, but it means that I assume full responsibility for my body in motion and in space at that height. And so to do that, I have to be settled, I have to be clear, and I have to be really dialed in. And so that knowing that practice does translate to my professional self when I'm having a difficult conversation. Sometimes I work with co founder pairs who are in really heated conversations are really unhappy with each other. They're breaking up, they're fighting over millions of dollars. It's like a nasty, nasty divorce. And I study myself, I take that breath, I take the beat, I find the confidence in the calm and my body. And then I marched forward, jump off the platform and into the fray.

That's so beautiful. Sherry, you're so inspiring. I just love listening to you talk.

Thanks, friend. You talk about trapeze all day.

I just like feel like I need to go learn some. I mean, I don't want to learn trapeze. But it's interesting that you in the beginning of the chat, you're saying that like you know, at recess, kids were on the bar flipping that was me. I could get up there and hold myself up and flip around and like I loved it. Like I love the monkey bars. I loved the bar. In fact, at one point in my life, I was in gymnastics, but I think what happened was I sprained my ankle. And my instructor was kind of mean, like, I was a little kid and she made me keep going. Like she was like hardcore, like a Olympic. Yeah, yes. And my mom's like, and you're done.

Yeah, we're not doing that anymore. Yeah.

But yeah, I think like, there's the I love that you've, you know, taken, like what you've learned from trapeze and from, you know, circus, and you're able to apply it to work, and also use it as a healing tool for you. And I'm really hoping that people listening to this, and I know, this is a business podcast, but they all work together. Like there is no separation between like your personal life and your business life, like you are living your life. And there's all these different elements to it, right.

And I think the part of success, to be honest, is being able to draw from the lessons of different domains of your life. And so I love when people are like, amazing at their work all in driven hardcore, but then also have this other part of them that's like a bit surprising, or is a separate part of them. That is a wealth of experience and inspiration and learning. So I think that successful people are always learning and they're always testing themselves and expanding their zone of genius and their level of confidence. So I think a hobby is a lovely, lovely way to do that.

Yeah, that's great. You know, and I totally agree like I when I'm in a good flow of, on my downtime, not watching so much Be a bit like listening to music and doing arts and crafts, I find that I'm showing up in a different place for my clients and my work. And, you know, I think it's like, you know, accessing different parts of your brain. And, you know, I don't know, I

literally having like a very flexible brain is really what we're talking about when we're talking about the diversification of our neurons and our neuronal systems. Oh, there's my brain. Yeah, sorry.

I like it. I like it. Yeah, um, okay, wait. So you have a podcast, and it's been downloaded over a million times.

Yeah, I've been around a while honey.

But you'll go and go Google her because she's amazing, actually, in the shownotes is like all of her links. But like, she has this podcast called Zen founder. And it's been downloaded over a million times. Like what tell us about that podcast?

Yeah, this is like my mental health for entrepreneurs one on one. It's super fun to do what I've been doing a long time. And it's a little bit of a grab bag of what you're gonna get when you listen, because so many things go under the umbrella of mental health. So sometimes it's about like a more traditional mental health topic like burnout or anxiety or depression. Other times, we talk a lot about relationships, relationships with co founders, relationships with your team relationships with your partner. Of course, things like parenting shape, the way that you show up at work sometimes. So it's a very broad interpretation of what mental health involves. But it brings me a lot of joy to just share some information and some ideas.

Oh my god, I love that. I feel like I need like two more hours with you. I'm gonna ask you a couple more questions. Okay. We're getting close to time. And I don't know how far you want to talk about this. But something that one thing that really drew me to you besides like your amazing personality, and that zebra dress you're wearing from Rent the Runway. It's like, well,

it's like a dress.

I love all animal prints. I actually just wore a zebra blazer on like a TV show. I was like, well done. Yeah. You work with mental health, like you work with psychedelics and mental health? I do. Yeah. How did you What piqued your curiosity about that?

I came in through the nerdy door. Actually, I started learning the research and the science. I trained at the National Center for PTSD, which is in Boston associated with Boston University School of Medicine. And so it's a, it's a really intense, high level place where people are thinking about how to treat usually war related trauma. And the the current treatments that we have are really, really great for some folks. But there are certain folks who have PTSD, who we've not been able to successfully treat through talk therapy or through traditional psychological medications. And so psychedelics have been around for a long time, actually in the psychotherapy world. So MDMA is a synthetic psychedelic, that's being used to treat PTSD that will be approved by the FDA probably next year. So I came in again, through this sort of nerdy, like, oh, my gosh, we could use this tool to treat people I'm all about helping my patients have better results. But of course, there's a whole world of how psychedelics can be useful things like LSD are really probably very effective in treating alcohol abuse or addiction. There's something called Iboga. That looks like it's incredibly effective at treating opioid addiction, which is one of the things that's most difficult to treat through traditional means. Psilocybin, which is the active ingredients, and mushrooms is being researched to treat eating disorders, OCD, end of life anxiety, suicidal depression. So when I lost my brother to suicide, I basically was like, you know, I feel part of my French like, What the fuck is happening with the mental health world because things aren't working. And it was the second catalyst. So if I started in the sciency, research world, losing my brother was the second piece that just made me think I need to explore these other choices. So I've trained with maps, I've trained to work with ketamine and done a lot of training and now I'm just like waiting for I'm in the US. So FDA approval to begin to roll out these treatments more more broadly in the world.

I think it's such important work like I've been doing some healing using plant medicine and I was very much like, what the fuck after my mum died very upper rooted and I owe a lot of me being able to come back down and rediscover myself to the beginning of my journey on With plant medicine. So I'm excited to follow your work with that. And we live in different countries, but when it's when the FDA approves it, and like, you know, I'll come down

to Canada actually has, like, probably will have access sooner than the US you have. Yeah, a little bit more reasonable, a fast moving government. So there you went.

You lose some right. But like, you know, I do believe in that work too. And yeah, I see He gets important work. So I applaud you to that. And I'm looking forward to following that journey. I mean, because obviously I stalk you and your circus adventures, so, and we just yeah,

I'm out there on Instagram with the circus in the psychedelics. Yeah. How can

people how can people find you what the psychedelic circus therapy unis?

Yeah, so Instagram is a great place to just like, keep tabs on what's going on. But more formally, I live on the internet at at Sherry walling.com. So that has a lot of information about the scope of things that I'm working on projects that I'm working on where I'm speaking, and then touching two worlds is kind of the home for my latest book. And I've been doing a lot of circus workshops. I call them circus for the brokenhearted, which helps non circusy people access circus as a therapeutic healing modality. So there's some good information on that work on that site as well. That's touching two worlds not calm.

Is your TED talk up on that?

It is yeah, thank you did

a TED talk. She did a TED talk. And she's amazing. Like, seriously, you're one of my most favorite people I've met like, you're so dynamic, like this lovely human who's like into circus and like helping people with psychedelics. And you've the books like yes, you're just amazing and like anyone that gets to know you as lucky so

thank you.

I appreciate you. So what advice do you have for someone who is on their path of dynamic success?

Think in keeping with our conversation, I would say don't forget to play sometimes play has this really juicy success content for you? So not letting your drive to success be totally a serious endeavor but letting it be part of all of you play included?

I like literally I'm gonna hang up and Google silky yoga in Kamloops. So, I'm like, I'm like ready to like you've just inspired me that's so brilliant. Don't forget to play like play is so important. You know, it's not all about work. So I You're just a genius. It's great. You're amazing. Thank you so much for coming on dissecting success. Thanks,

Blair. Good to be with you always.

And thanks, everyone for tuning in to another episode you dove into success with me and Dr. Sherry Walling, check out her links in the show notes. Just remember, have fun, make sure you play and you got this piece.

That's a wrap for another episode of dissecting success. enjoyed this episode. Make sure to subscribe to Blair Kaplan, Venables and Teresa Lambert's podcast dissecting success on the App Store.