Shiva Girl with Jessica Fein | 024

Welcome back to another episode of Resilient AF with

Blair and Alana. And, yes, we are both here today. Hello. And so

is Jessica Fine. Did I say that right?

You did say that right. Yes. Yes. I love when I pronounce names right. She's

absolutely amazing. I met her through the grief community. She's the

author of Breathtaking, a memoir of family, dreams, and broken

genes, and the host of I Don't Know How You Do It podcast,

featuring raw, real, and rare conversations with people

whose lives seem unimaginable. In fact, Alana and I were

both guests on her show. She writes the grace and grief column

for Psychology Today, and her writing has appeared in The New York Times,

Newsweek, the Boston Globe, HuffPost, and other leading publications.

Her work encompasses hope and humor, grit and grace, the

tools that make up her personnel her personal survival kit. I was

gonna say and her personality, which is also true. I'll take

that. And and, you know, your

story is your story is something,

of heartbreak and inspiration, and I

wanna invite you to share your story. Okay.

Well, first of all, I'm so happy to be here with both of you. Thank

you for having me. I'm huge fans as you know, and I loved having the

two of you on my show. So, yeah, my story. So I

guess, you know, when we think about my story

as it pertains to grief, it started when

I was in my late twenties. And that was a

long time ago, and I have really lived most of my

adult life profoundly grieving. When I

was 27 and my sister was 30,

she died suddenly. I was the youngest

of three, and my middle sister was my

best friend. And we had been on the phone a

couple of hours earlier. I was at work. She was a new mom, and she

would call me every day. And I'd be like, I'm at work. Hello? But, you

know, so it was. And, she was

out playing with her baby, and she went into cardiac arrest and died

suddenly. And that, you

know, changed everything for me. Not only did it change

who I was and how I saw myself, but it really changed how I saw

the world. And and I thought that would be

the defining bad thing that happened in my life. Like, I thought that would

probably be the worst thing that ever happened to me. And

it was a defining moment in my life for sure, and it

was absolutely one of the worst things that happened.

Couple of decades, I lost both of my parents, so

relatively young. So over

the next couple of decades, I lost both of my parents,

so relatively young, and my

older sister who went in for

a routine breast exam and found out she had stage four lung

cancer. So, you know, just kind of huge,

horrible loss. And yet none of that

was, like, the, quote, unquote,

big loss capital, all capitals, exclamation points, etcetera,

which was the death of my daughter. My daughter, Dahlia, died

three years ago, one week after her seventeenth birthday.

And so, you know, I have

really learned what it is to

to be a lifelong griever. I learned most of what it means to

figure out how to deal with the

most horrific things one can imagine

and have a life from my daughter from watching her,

from watching how she had all of her functionality taken away from

her over her 17, her ability to walk and

talk and eat and breathe without a ventilator, and, ultimately, her

ability to move. For two years, she wasn't able to move. And

she continued to figure out ways

to find joy and to be part of the world and to give

off her most amazing sweetness and love and

and to really not spend her days curled up

in the fetal position, which she had every would have had every right to do.

So she was my guide.

That's a lot of a lot of loss you've experienced.

And what struck me is the different roles you've

experienced loss as and, like, the different relationships you've

had. So you've you've grieved as a sister, as a best

friend, then the grief of your own of losing your

only other sister who's a lot who is alive, then

being a grieving daughter, and then eventually

becoming a grieving mother. Yeah.

And, you know, what's one of the things that has been a

really interesting perspective for me is having bit lost

my sibling at that formative time and then

being the mother of two kids who lost their sibling, because I have three

kids Yeah. Has been kind of interesting. But the other thing that I

learned through the the grief with Dahlia in particular

is about other kinds of grief. Right? Because I I had

no idea that grief was, like, more than we grieve when somebody

dies, like, you know, traditional Hallmark card grief.

And learning about I mean, anticipatory grief,

yeah, for sure. But the whole notion of ambiguous grief, which was not

something that I had any idea I had no idea what it meant. And I

lived that for a very long time. Completely.

And I wanna speak to something because I had just read an article that you

wrote for Psychology Today about the three

year anniversary of losing Dahlia. And you

talk about something, and I'm hoping you can elaborate on more,

about the different milestones that Dahlia reached

and and her place in the family and then having

her younger siblings now be older than

than her. Yes. Right. Because Dahlia was the middle.

And so when and and she died, as I've now

said it a couple times at 17. And my

younger child who's two years younger than Dahlia, when he

became 17, and now this week, he's gonna be

18, You know, that is so discombobulating, and

that's something that I really experienced because, you know, we all

define ourselves by our place within our family structure to a certain

extent, you know, up until a certain point. So I was, you

know, the youngest of three, and, you you know, that's kind of how

you how you exist and carry on through the world when

you're you know, until you go on and create whatever life you create

us away from your nuclear family or your family of origin. But when

I became older than my sister,

it was just so strange because, of course,

I still think of my sister in certain respects as 30. You

know? But then I also think about her aging alongside me.

So, yes, that was very, very strange. The other thing is that even in

Dahlia's lifetime, as my

younger son, Theo, as he

became developed skills skills and was able to do things that

she wasn't. And, you know, a perfect example in the role reversal they

experienced is when when Theo was a baby, Dahlia, like, thought he was

hers. You know? She was just such the little mama la,

and she would, feed him. And, like, she just

loved to feed him. You know? And she would help, you know,

as he was, like, learning to scribble and whatever. She just loved

mothering him. And as she lost

her functionality, he, of course, did so much for

her. So, you know, she lost the ability

ultimately to eat, but but before she, you know, she had a feeding tube

from age nine. But before that, when she was you know, she had a lot

of tremors and when she would be shaking, he would be now steadying her hand.

He would be helping her right. So all these things that she helped him do,

and then we watched as he advanced beyond

where she would ever get and where she had once

been both. And that was really hard. And I think in many

respects in those early years, we saw what she was

losing based on what he was gaining, right, when they were itty bitty, and we

could see him surpassing. Right. Because there's so many

developmental milestones that happen when you're young and and having

them being somewhat close in age. Exactly. It's like

And Yeah. And, you know, I I know a lot of people

who have kids with these insidious insidious genetic

diseases, and and many of them never develop. Right? From birth,

they just don't have that functionality. And the thing that, like,

extra twist of cruelty in the Dahlia story is that

she was able to do those things, to run and jump and, you

know, eat and write and do all these things and speak and

play and then lost that. Mhmm. And, you know, we're

so used as parents to watching our kids gain all these skills. We're not

used to seeing them lose them. Yeah.

So it's you had a lot of that anticipatory grief, I'm guessing,

as she looked started to lose those skills. And

not only were you probably holding your own grief, you're probably holding

Dalia's grief too. How did how was that

as for both of you, for you and for Dahlia?

You know, Dahlia was very much focused

on doing what she could do. She wasn't focused on what she couldn't do.

Mhmm. And, you know, she loved going to school. She went to school her whole

life. And, you know, we ended up having to switch schools, and we

sent her to school with a private nurse. And then she was in a school

that was on a hospital. Grounds. I mean, this was not conventional school, but she

she wanted to be out there. She wanted to be experiencing things.

So for her, you know, I think that the griefiest

thing for her was losing the ability to eat. That was

huge for her. I think in many

ways, that was more upsetting for her than ending up in

a wheelchair or, you know, other things that she lost. She real you

know, and and it makes sense. We all of us,

like, food is such a part

of, of socializing, of culture, of

it's so much more than just, like, what you're putting in your mouth. And in

fact, you know, one of the things that I've written quite a bit about is

how we had to follow again her lead because when

she first got her, g tube and was no longer able to eat

orally, we decided that we were gonna, like, shield her from

all things food related because we thought that would be so mean to, like, everybody

to be eating in front of her. So for quite some time I mean,

like, for a couple of years, when it was dinner time, my husband or I

would be in the other room playing with her while one of us ate with

the with the other kids. And then when she went to this new school that

I was mentioning a moment ago that was on the hospital grounds, they had

cooking class. And and she was not the only kid with a G2, and I

was like, what is that? That's, like, horrible. That's terrible. How can they do

that? And the first day that Dalia

went to school there, she came home with these cookies they had

baked. And she had, like, carefully wrapped four cookies, one

for each of us in this, you know, thing, and she handed each one to

us, and she was so proud. And we realized she

wanted to be part of this. You know? Just because she couldn't eat, we were

we were, like, excluding her even further, of course, unintentionally.

So from that point on, she became very much a part of

the whole food preparation thing. We had got her a chef hat.

She was little chef. She Mhmm. My husband because I don't cook. You know? And

she would always we never missed a family meal after

that up until the night before she died because, you know, we realized

that being part of the eating

that you know, everything that's involved with that is so much more important than

the actual eating morally, eating the food.

Completely. I I don't know if Lana knows part of your

story, and I know you recently were on a trip.

Oh, yes. Is that something that we can talk about it? About

because Yeah. You had some you you had a really beautiful experience,

and you you did some very beautiful traditions. Yeah. I

would love to hear about if you can share about all of that.

Yeah. All three of our kids were born in Guatemala. My husband and

I adopted all three of them. And,

so we had not been back. I mean, my husband and I have been to

Guatemala Five times for all those adoptions, but we had not been

back with our kids until this past Christmas. And we had

been waiting for them to tell us when they wanted to go, and so they

came to us and they said they were ready. And I knew that I wanted

to do something while we were there to honor Dahlia. I wasn't quite sure at

first what it would be, but I was working with some

folks in Guatemala City, and we were talking through some different

ideas. And they introduced me, to

a Mayan priestess in, a

part of Guatemala that was close to where Dahlia was born. And what's

interesting is that there are a lot of different Mayan dialects.

So even within Guatemala, people who speak, quote, unquote,

Mayan, which isn't really actually what the languages are called, might not be able to

understand each other. But we arranged to

meet this priestess, Juana, and to have

a traditional Mayan fire ceremony, which what it

which is what is done, a, to

honor people who have died, typically ancestors. Right? But,

also, this ceremony could be used for many other things. It could be used if

you wanted help with your business. It could be used, you know, for celebration,

for many different things. In this case, it was gonna be a memorial ceremony.

And so we met the Mayan priestess in

this plaza, which is called Baktun,

which is actually interesting because it's what it means is

where where the earth ends. Right? So it's kind of like this

idea of a liminal space in a way.

And it was a very traditional ceremony where she came,

and we had a translator, which is a whole other story because that kind

of that was, his English our translator's English

wasn't great. So I had to do some workarounds there. But in

any event, she came and she set up

this very traditional altar. And what they do is they set up things that

would appeal to the person they're reaching, in this case, Dahlia.

Right? And so there's some things that are always there, like, there's

different kinds of incense and, different color candles depending

on what kind of ceremony it is. And there was beautiful

flower petals and a circle of sugar candy sweetness

because the idea is that when you burn it, this is what's going up and

reaching the spirits, and they want it to be, you know, pleasing to the spirits.

And then based on the direction of the fire and the way the ashes

burn, she, Juana, the priestess, is getting messages

from the spirits, from Dahlia. And and she's chanting it was

forty five minutes. She's chanting in this dialect that, of

course, we didn't understand. And then the translator is understanding

them, but he is then translating them to Spanish, which we're then having him

put Spanish into the, into the phone so

we could do the translation. I mean, the whole thing was, like, crazy. But in

any event, it what was fascinating about it was

it felt so authentic to all of

us. And it was so weird to me because, you know, we're

Jewish, and we had had a very traditional Jewish funeral as I've had for every

member of my family. And I know those songs, and I

know the tradition. I mean, I know it far too well, honestly.

And yet this, where we did not understand one thing that the woman was

saying. We were in a place we had never been before. Everything

was just so foreign, and everything was so right.

It felt so much more authentic to

us. And I think part of that is because we knew that this was, you

know, the language Dahlia probably heard first. We were there in

Dahlia's homeland. You know? It just there was just such a feeling

of this this needed to happen.

Wow. That's pretty powerful. Yeah. And

and you you brought up that point of just, like, the different cultural

ways people grieve in their traditions. And so to

go from something which is not so foreign to you,

like the Jewish way of of mourning and which

I personally find is like a beaut I think Jews Oh, yeah. Well, no. I

I my nickname is Shiva girl. I'm the biggest Shiva fan

in the world, so I could talk about Shiva all day long. Wait. Wait. That's

like a superhero character in a I am Shiva Girl. Oh, and by the

way, I will tell you. The first time we actually did come up with the,

where Shiva Man preceded Shiva Girl, when I was sitting my first

loss, three months before my sister, Nomi, that I was talking about

earlier, was my stepfather. He died three months before she did.

And we were doing a traditional Shiva. And so for listeners who might not know,

if you're doing, your prayer twice a day, you need to have

what's called dominion. Right? So you need to have 10 people who, depending on

how religious you are, they may need to be 10 men. In our case, that

wasn't, true. We women were considered part of the minyan,

but you have to be Jewish and you have to be of a certain need,

you know, an adult. And so anyhow, one day, we didn't have

a minyan, and we weren't gonna be able to do the shiva. And the rabbi

pulls out his beeper. This was a long time ago, pre cell phone, and, like,

you know, dial somebody. And the guy shows up, and I'm like, who are you?

What are you? And this guy is on, like, essentially speed

dial to show up and complete a minyan if they don't have them. And and

we said, okay. That's a superhero. Right? That's like Shiva

guy. Thinking of, like, the impossible theme

song, like, do do do do, and it's like,

Shiva. Oh gosh. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's

fantastic. I to be honest, I forgot what my question was because we went on

a Sorry. A whole cycle. Cycle. I was saying it was yeah. I

I do love Shiva. I mean, in in fact, as I've I've had a few

friends recently who have lost people close to them who aren't Jewish,

and it's always so weird to me that, like, the next day, they're kind

of alone or, like, back to usual. And I'm like, wait. Where's the

week? You need the week. Yeah. Who's feeding you? Yes. Who's bringing

you food? We have this is just like a quick aside. My best

friend, her, her mom is known

for making, like,

for shivas, making this banana chocolate chip bread. They

call it and so we call it shiva loaf. Oh my god. That's

so funny. Funny because, like, we Alana and I had so much death in such

a short period of time. And so as soon as someone died, I'm like, Alana,

like You've messed up your Get get get You need the shiva loaf. Tell your

friend to make the shiva loaf. Like, let's order some shiva loaf. That's

so funny. I I mean, there was, like, there were years where I was like,

I if I see another shiva like, I cannot because, like, it's not a shiva

until the shiva loaf shows up. But it sounds like shiva loaf may be better

than even shiva. The shiva loaf is fantastic. I also got it rebranded

as a housewarming shiva or a housewarming loaf once, which was

fantastic. Loaf. Loaf. Anyway but it's it's

different than the way, I guess, like, in my end

Guatemalan traditions, the way they grieve and and honor. And

and I find that it's something so beautiful

with loss and grief is just seeing how folks are

honored, whether it be through a traditional ceremony, whether it be

through a Shiva, whether it be through a good written

obituary. Just Yes. I totally agree. And in fact, one of the

things I'm working on now is a project that's exploring throughout different cultures and

different religions, different belief systems, you know,

how how we connect to the people we've lost. Yeah.

And it was so Dahlia, you said you just felt,

like, so right for Dahlia to have that.

I'm I'm curious what your other two

kids thought about it. Well, I mean, my eldest was like as we

left, said to me, I wanna be buried in Guatemala.

And I'm like, okay. Let's assume that's not a decision

I'm gonna be making. Let's assume that's gonna be right? I was like, I don't

need to to know about that. My time. Yeah. I was like, wait.

No. But I thought it was interesting that that was kinda, like, the first thing

that that was I think it was very important to both of them. I think,

you know, being in Guatemala was much more important to both of them than,

I shouldn't say more important. I should say I was happy to see how

they connected from the second they got off the plane with being in Guatemala in

general and then with this experience in particular.

Completely because I mean, how old were they when you adopted

all three of them? My eldest was,

was a year and a half. Mhmm. And

my and Dolly was our youngest. She was six months.

And then our youngest, our little guy, was 10.

Okay. So all quite young. Newborn. Yeah. All quite young,

yet still lived some life in Guatemala, and it's

in their bones and in their In their brain wiring, for sure. Yeah. In

their genetics and their brain wiring. So that makes sense that they felt

this, like, almost Yeah. Sense of

I don't wanna say home because it might be. Maybe it is, but I don't

wanna put words into their mouth. I think they also loved that

they were surrounded by people who looked like

them. Yeah. You know? For example, one of the

things, in Guatemala, for the

most part, the people are shorter than they are here,

and my kids are short. And, my

husband's quite tall. You know? And I think that they loved there. They were kinda,

like, taller than a lot of people. You know, that just isn't something they are

accustomed to, and that felt good to them. And they, you know, they liked being

in the majority. It was really interesting because, you know, my husband and I were

in the minority. It was a total inverse. And the other thing is, you know,

where we were, we traveled quite a bit. It was not Americanized. It was amazing

because so much of the time we travel places and everybody speaks English and the

this was not that. And it was really great. Wow. I

think that's so beautiful. And I I mean, even, you

know, for your other kids to experience that.

And what a gift for you to bring them there. Do you We can't

wait to go back. Yeah. Just saying, do you have plans to go back? Oh,

totally. I mean, the only thing is I will say in the,

spirit of being fully honest, I ended up, like, the last couple days

getting pretty sick there. So just like the you know? So I'm a little nervous.

But once I get over that, yes, we're gonna go back. And in fact, I

kind of fell in love with Antigua, which was, at one point,

the capital of Guatemala now or it's Guatemala City, but it's just the

most beautiful, beautiful city. And, we found a school where

like, an intensive Spanish speaking school or Spanish language

learning school. And, so at least my husband and I are really interested in doing

that. And then, of course, you know, we've been talking about, oh my god. What

if we have to leave this country just because, you know, we're a little crazy

right now. We won't go into that. But we're like, how funny would it be

if we end up moving to Guatemala? I mean, I think more, like, not even

funny, but, like, how beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful

and and something we would not have seen coming, but you you never know.

Well, there's a lot of things happening that no one has seen coming. So

Yeah. It's scary. I'm really scared. I'm really scared for my kids.

Yeah. What like, do you mind if we talk about that briefly? Because I

think it's really relevant. So for those

of you listening, Alana and I are Canadian in in Canada.

So our experience with what's happening around the world is

only what we see on the news.

What's it like for you having two

visibly nonwhite children I assume you're doing it.

We also have gender stuff in my family too, which is right now, you know,

I mean, we're just watching DEIP erased and erased and erased,

and it's so scary. I I

I, you know, I try to tell myself that,

you know, don't get carried away. Don't let the thoughts, you know, make you

crazy. But then you read about people who are just, like, swept off the streets,

you know, because they, you know, are just I'm like, you guys have to go.

You have to always have your, you know, US documents with you, your citizenship

papers with you. Like, it's Do they have they carry that stuff with them? I

want them to. I mean, I don't think most people I mean, as the, like

But are they doing it? You know,

they have pictures of their passports on their phone. Right? But, you know,

it's scary. It is very scary. I I worry a lot,

and I think it's gonna get a lot worse. I mean, we're like we've got

it all. We've got, like you know, there's a lot of antisemitism

now. Mhmm. For sure, you, you know, there's

so much look. If you're not, like, a white

heterosexual Yeah. Cis

male. Yeah. Which of the four of us, one of us fits that bill.

Right? So so my husband will be fine. Although he's Jewish. So He's

Jewish, so not really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Top of the

food chain. Top of the food chain. Right? Like Yeah. You know, it's

I can't even imagine how you feel navigating

that. And, I mean, I

know a lot of people who feel the same way. Like, they're scared and they

don't feel safe, and I can't imagine what it what it feels like to not

feel safe for for you or your family in your home, like, in

your hometown. Right? You know? And and I also I just feel so sad for

my kids that this that they are seeing this, that these are the

leaders. You know? And and when you read

about the way they speak about people who are

different, it's like every every day there's something new. I mean,

now getting rid of so many rights for people with

disabilities. I mean, that you know, I think about what oh my god.

Like, for example, Medicaid.

Right? When you have a child who is severely

disabled, nobody could afford I mean, we had in home

nursing care around the clock for eight years. You know? I mean, you're all

on Medicaid. Doesn't matter what you know, everybody's on Medicaid if in

that situation. And when now with the, you know, Department of

Education being dismantled, I mean, I don't I know this isn't a political show. No.

No. It's but it's a it's it's resilience. That's what we talk about. Yeah. So,

you know, Department of Education being dismantled means that

disability rights for children in schools. And, again, you know, so

now I have an one of my kids is has more

typical, like, IEP and disability rights in that respect. But then I I

think about, you know, what would be happening to

Dahlia. Yeah. It's so scary. Anyway

That is very scary. Yes. We do have a little cottage in Canada, so who

knows? Maybe we'll come in Come on over. Papers with you guys.

I I mean, I think this conversation, like, it can go

on because there's so many different, like, things happening.

And, you know, we are brought here to today to talk

about your journey, you know, with grief. And,

you know, what's happening is a type of grief. It is a type of grief.

And, again, you know, what we were saying at the beginning in terms of, like,

I thought grief was what happened when somebody died. And now realizing, my god,

we are all grieving. There is a lot to be

grieving. And and even even the more Hallmark

Hallmark card traditional grief, especially now, you know, at

this age, everybody's a griever. Right?

And if they're not, they will be. Right? I mean, it's the

most universal thing, as you guys know. And it's just we all Great equalizer.

Yeah. It's just like the pandemic, an equalizer. Like, no one is immune.

Nobody's immune. And what is strange is that

given that it is the great equalizer and it's I call it

an equal opportunity emotion, it's so strange that we're

just so weird and awkward and uncomfortable and don't know what to say or do

and don't wanna talk about it. You know, it's like that we should all be

fluent. Well, because of the work you do and the

work we do and that our fellow other, you know, grief experts are

doing, the conversation is starting to become more normal.

And we're still gonna be awkward, but maybe we'll have more tools because grief

is awkward. Grief is awkward. Right. But and and even

just knowing that we can say, this is really weird. Like, I feel really uncomfortable.

And that's like, I am really fucking sad and, like, admitting it and,

like, not functioning. And it's it's it's really interesting to even

see the conversation change from, like, for us, like, from six years ago

when my life kinda started to fall apart to now and seeing how

more comfortable people are, but we still have a long way to go. And I

wanna thank you for the work that you do and the writing that you do

because it's helping pave that way.

Well, thank you for what you guys are doing too. And I wonder if you

think that it really is that the conversation is changing and people are getting more

comfortable or if it's that you know people who are

in the grief space. So in your world, it it's

more. I think it's p I like, on social media, for example, and I'm a

vintage millennial. So, like, I'm of the generation that's starting to be more comfortable

talking about the things that aren't just sunshine or rainbows. But

I'm seeing more people that aren't grief professionals

showing up and sharing their feelings publicly about what they're

going through. Mhmm. So I think it has a lot

to do with also people like us who are comfortable sharing.

Yeah. It's like this unwritten, but actually written because it's Facebook statuses or

whatever. Like, permission to show up and share all the

things that are happening, the good and the bad. And so I'm seeing a lot

of people in my my, like, cohort of age and

and younger really sharing everything and

using social media as an outlet to express their

feelings. And I think it's really beautiful. Yeah. I do

very normalizing. So normalizing. And I've met such

amazing humans this way through social by people who are

taught, you know, being real. Yeah. And I mean, even if those people who aren't

comfortable making a huge Instagram post when people like us

or other people show up and share their feelings, it may be that bridge

to give them permission to feel comfortable to get a therapist or

to acknowledge what they're going through. And that's, like, our whole

purpose. And so, yeah, I do think the conversation

conversation is changing. And,

yeah, and this conversation will hopefully help move the needle even more.

And, Jessica, before we wrap up, why don't you share

a piece of advice maybe for mothers who are at the

beginning of a journey similar to yours was with,

Dahlia? Yeah. It's hard to just come up with

one, but I would say that this is going

to define so much of your life. Like, yes. That's

true. It's gonna define a lot, but it does not define you, and

it does not define your child. And I think continuing to

find those things outside outside of the disease. And if if it's

a chronic illness, that can be hard. Right? But to find

those things that have nothing to do with it, that bring you joy, that

create meaning, that, you know, give you beauty, it are

so important. And those will become perhaps smaller and more

ordinary things, but they'll become things that

really feel extraordinary. And so I would say

also for the parent to have something that

is just hers or his, something that, you know, maybe

you did before or that you want to to kind of take

on, whatever it is so that your whole world doesn't

become this one thing. That's beautiful advice.

Thank you. And thank you for joining us on today's

episode. Having me. Yeah. And thank you to everyone who took the time

to listen to Jessica's

story, to, you know, follow along all of our shows

or maybe you're new here. Hi. Welcome. Just know

that it's okay to not be okay. You you're gonna get through those

dark days. I promise. We're gonna hold your hand.

Let the Global Resilience Project and this podcast be that lighthouse in

the storm. And just remember, friends, you are

resilient AF. Thank you.